jmc1975
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777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:15 am

Since Boeing just launched the 787-10 and is simultaneously developing the 777X, my question is, what's the point? Wouldn't both aircraft fulfill roughly the same role? Perhaps I am way out of the loop when it comes to commercial aviation, but to me this makes about as much since as developing an all-new 737/757 replacement while committing to the 737MAX. Has Boeing simply lost it's marbles? Or do the product planners at Boeing have some sort of genius insight that predicts a saturated widebody market all while ignoring the need for a true 757 replacement?
.......
 
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BreninTW
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:18 am

The 787-10 is effectively an A330-300 replacement, while the 777X is a replacement for the 777-300ER and 747 family. They serve different purposes really.
 
jmc1975
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:39 am

I thought the 787-9 was an A330-300 replacement as they are roughly the same length. So if the 777X is to also replace the 747 family, can we expect it to cannibalize sales of the 747-8i? Plus the 787-10 will likely have a deficiency in range combared to the A332 and A333. Doesn't make sense at all.

What would've made sense instead was revamp the narrowbody lineup with the 797 and finally put the 737 to bed. By the time the silly MAX is produced, the 737 will have celebrated it's 50th anniversary.

Here's what should've happened.....

797-2 = 737-700 replacement
797-3 = 737-800 replacement
797-4 = 737-900 replacement

797-8 = 757-200 replacement
797-9 = 757-300 replacement
.......
 
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zkokq
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:15 am

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 2):

You should take that to Boeing. They might change the program !
 
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Revelation
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:40 am

Thinking in terms of replacements is useful, but don''t go too far with it.

The 787 family is bigger and wider than the 767 family and there's a lot of 767-300ERs and -400s out there still needing to be replaced.

The 787-10 will not have the range of the 777X family members, which many think was an intentional decision.

The 787-10 will undermine the 777-8X a bit, but keep in mind the -8X is waiting for an all new wing and engine to be designed, built and certified, whereas the 787-10 is a simple stretch of the -9 so it will be on the market a lot quicker.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
steman
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:08 pm

Comparing planes just by their fuselage lengths is somewhat wrong in my opinion.
787-10 and 777X are very different models with basically no overlap.
What Boeing is doing is actually clever. They are boxing out Airbus.
With the 787 Boeing now offers three models from a little over 200 to well over 300 seats, with ranges that cover 90% of the world long haul routes.
With the 777X they offer two models with capacities ranging from a little below the current 777-300ER (but with much greater range) to about the capacity of the 747-8i (de facto killing it)
This is a total of 2 models in 5 variants that cover every airline need from 200 to over 400 seats, giving airlines the flexibility of such a big family.

Airbus can oppose this with only one model in 3 variations, of which one, the -800, seems to be rather overweight for its intended role (being a shortened -900 rather than an optimized variant) and has gained little orders and instead lots of conversions to the -900.
Between the A350-1000 and the A380, Airbus has a huge gap which airlines will fill with Boeing products. In some cases airlines will skip Airbus altogether in order to have just one family of long haul planes.
A380 sales will never equal those of smaller models.
Airbus needs to review its strategy but I doubt they will be able to come with something new for at least the next 5 to 10 years.

Of course it still remains to be seen whether the 787-9 and -10 as well as the 777X will perform as expected and in the planned time scale.
 
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:17 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 5):
787-10 and 777X are very different models with basically no oveap.
What Boeing is doing is actually clever. They are boxing out Airbus.

A picture says a thousand words:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Portals/AWeek/TWW/GuyN/twin_aisleK65914.jpg

Keep in mind the digital artist took a little advantage of perspective, but still, the a/c all have their roles.

The good news for Airbus is that the -8X and -9X won't be in service till 2019 or so. The bad news is that Boeing probably have all the -300ER orders they need to make it to that point, and it'll still be a few years till Airbus is making the A350 in the numbers that Boeing is now making 787s.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
flightsimer
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:45 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 5):

And when you go by pilot groups, Boeing's 777 and 787 share a common type rating. More than likely, the same will be true with the 777x.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 2):

Boeing and a lot of people here don't believe that an all new narrow body built in this decade would be much more competitive over either the Max or Neo. Meaning they would spend billions more for just a few more percentages in efficiency.
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
planemannyc
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:42 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/Assets/GetAsset.aspx?ItemID=44763

Flight Global's article does a great job of detailing the entire 787/777/747 lineup. You can see in the graphic how these models line up.

http://www.flightglobal.com/features/Boeing-777-special/777X/
 
wingman
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:04 pm

Not so sure we'll get many more orders from the 748i, but it still leaves a WB lineup that spans 6 aircraft to Airbus' 3...for the current sales "future" of aircraft on offer. That must be putting Leahy in a bit of a bind which is probably why you hear about 380 refreshes, renewed talk of a 350-11 etc. IMO I see the 748 and 778 ending up as freighter kings, with the rest covering almost every possible passenger angle any carrier would ever need (except LH of course!).

I've been very down on Boeing lately but if they end the year at Dubai with another massive launch order bonanza it could put them in a good position vis a vis Airbus on the WB front. I'd love to see 150 firm orders for the 777X there. My personal bet, that will include JAL and ANA if the wings get made in Japan, or none at all if the wings get made in the US. That's the conversation that will happen in the back hallways of government over the next 3-4 months. I'm not sure I'd ever see the point in ceding the most critical component manufacturing to a market that doesn't order the final product.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 9):
My personal bet, that will include JAL and ANA if the wings get made in Japan, or none at all if the wings get made in the US.

Don't forget that major portions of the 777 fuselage are made in Japan.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Stitch
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:20 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 9):
I'd love to see 150 firm orders for the 777X there. My personal bet, that will include JAL and ANA if the wings get made in Japan, or none at all if the wings get made in the US.

I just don't see where the 777X fits into the network of either NH or JL.

The A350-1000 and 787-10, on the other hand...
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:32 am

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 2):
can we expect it to cannibalize sales of the 747-8i?

No, because the 747-8 probably wouldn't get many more sales anyway, regardless of whether the 777-8X/9X existed or not.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
celestar
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:52 am

Can someone helps me to understand, the new B777-800 will be longer than the current 777-200 but shorter than 777-300ER?
The new B777-900 should be longer than B747-400 but shorter than B747-800 ?
Is this understanding correct? Not familiar with adding 4 frames to the fuselarge means in layman language!
 
tortugamon
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:23 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 13):

Despite doing so I am not actively trying to brush you off but wiki is not terrible for straight facts like this. Look for the specifications by model section toward the bottom and all of the derivatives are listed. Not sure who recently added the 777x stuff but if you are here, thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747

tortugamon
 
waly777
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:06 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 14):
Despite doing so I am not actively trying to brush you off but wiki is not terrible for straight facts like this. Look for the specifications by model section toward the bottom and all of the derivatives are listed. Not sure who recently added the 777x stuff but if you are here, thanks.

Ah I didn't even realise it but the 777-9X will overtake the 747-8 as the longest commercial aircraft in the world once it EIS...even though it will be a difference of .25m
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
astuteman
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RE: 777X And 787-10: What's The Point?

Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:58 am

Quoting jmc1975 (Thread starter):
Since Boeing just launched the 787-10 and is simultaneously developing the 777X, my question is, what's the point? Wouldn't both aircraft fulfill roughly the same role?

Nowhere near. The 777X is a 350 tonne plane, and the 787-10 is a 250 tonne plane.

the 787-10 is a 280m2 cabin, 7 000nm nominal plane
The 777-8LX is a c. 300m2 cabin, 9 500Nm plane
The 777-9 is a c. 350m2 cabin, 8 000Nm plane

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 2):
Plus the 787-10 will likely have a deficiency in range combared to the A332 and A333.

Again,

Latest spec A330-200 - c. 7 500Nm
787-10 - 7 000Nm
A330-300 - c. 6 000nm

Quoting steman (Reply 5):
What Boeing is doing is actually clever. They are boxing out Airbus.

When you look down the products that actually works both ways. The ranges mesh like gears in a gearbox

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
A picture says a thousand words:

indeed it does. Boeing have said that the 787-777X line up gives them c. 15% capacity intervals between each model.

rgds

[Edited 2013-06-21 04:37:16]

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