Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Faro
Topic Author
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:28 pm

With the A321 selling so successfully in both its classic and NEO incarnations these days, is there a business case for a further, ultimate stretch to yield a shorter range, high capacity A322? An LCC optimised aircraft that would also appeal to other carriers for high-volume, high-frequency regional routes.

Would the demand materialise, would the range shortfall justify a restricted mission that would sell in commercially acceptable numbers? Can PW/CFM further increase their thrust offerings? It seems to me that the airframe can take a further, final stretch, with perhaps a minimal MLG lenghtening. And most importantly, can this be done without significant re-wing work?

Thoughts?

Faro

[Edited 2013-09-10 06:36:08]
The chalice not my son
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:31 pm

The experience with the B757-300, which is what you describe, is not positive - it didn't sell. If airlines go back to use the read doors for boarding too, this might be a winner.
 
User avatar
American 767
Posts: 4531
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:36 pm

I doubt it will have success with the airlines. Remember the 757-300? It didn't do well, only 55 or so were sold as nearly 1000 of the original 200s were sold. If, generally speaking, the airlines were not interested in the 757-300 then I doubt they would be interested in the A322 if Airbus proposes it, even NEO. Yes...maybe Lufthansa or Condor would be interested.

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
User avatar
Faro
Topic Author
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):

Yes but any prospective A322 would have significantly lower empty weights and *far* better operating economics than the 753....maybe that can tip the balance...


Faro

[Edited 2013-09-10 06:38:19]

[Edited 2013-09-10 06:43:34]
The chalice not my son
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:48 pm

One difference between a hypothetical A322 and the 757-300 is timing. The 753 would have been a perfect replacement for many of the USA domestic 767 flights and other high capacity short haul routes.... except that the 767s were only a decade old. Now that the 767s are ageing and oil is much more expensive the business case could be much better.

Also, the 757 was something of a niche product outside of the USA. An A320 variant would have broader appeal, especially in Asia and other emerging market.

All that said, I highly doubt that it would happen. The 321 is already stretching the 320 frame to the limits, and among other things a further stretch would probably require new wings.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting faro (Thread starter):
An LCC optimised aircraft that would also appeal to other carriers for high-volume, high-frequency regional routes.

A "LCC optimnised aircraft" isn't a stretched A321. The biggest drawback is that it takes too long to board and disembark it passengers, even if using the rear doors ala FR how do you acheive a 20 minute turnround with such a long fuselage ?
The only people who seemed to make the 753 work were inclusive tour operators on fairly long routes, if the flight time is 4 hours the extra 5 minutes to board and 5 minutes to disembark isn't really a problem, on the other hand on a 1 hour sector it is.
The additional problem is that its more difficult to stretch a narrowbody simply due to the smaller diameter fuselage, the ratio of cross section to length results in the need for additional strengthening in order to keep the required stiffness. To demonstrate this practically, take a piece of 1" diameter plastic pipe say 12" long and a piece 2" diameter of the same length and wall section and then see the difference in stiffness.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:29 pm

There is a A322neo concept floating on the internet. I however don't think customers would be interested in this concept because a 787-8 is better suited for this kind of missions.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/nw42.jpg
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:31 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 5):
The additional problem is that its more difficult to stretch a narrowbody simply due to the smaller diameter fuselage, the ratio of cross section to length results in the need for additional strengthening in order to keep the required stiffness.

I was just going to suggest A322 yesterday so let me say this. A32x is bigger diameter than Boeing NB and A321 is significantly shorter in length than 757s. However, the A32x gear is shorter in height (though not as short as 737).

The NEO ought to look into this carefully - maybe lengthen every variant by 10-12 feet or so. Mechanical progress and lightening over the last 20 years should that ensure that it's feasible in terms of performance.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5486
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
There is a A322neo concept floating on the internet.

Karel, I'm starting to get more and more suspicious of the link between you and the defunct username Keesje...
 
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:49 pm

New wings would be necessary, so it would be a major investment. But in the long run (I'm thinking 2030) it might be worth it. Narrowbody capacities continue to climb, and there continues to be demand for very-low-CASM aircraft. Certainly, the A320 has more potential for this sort of stretch than the 737 does.

The other alternative is that Boeing might position NSA a bit above the A320 series in weight and capability. If it does, then this size plane as the largest NSA variant would be a very natural outcome.
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:05 pm

Assuming, for a moment, that there might be demand for such an aircraft (those who have stated the case for the 757-300 are quite correct...the airplane didn't sell well), it would need significant rework to make it a viable airplane.

Lessons learned from the 757-300

Stretching the airframe is one thing. Not changing the engines is quite another. The 757-300 is underpowered and therefore cannot be used on any kind of short field with a full payload.

Decreased range...again, not doing anything to add additional fuel capacity to the aircraft make the aircraft a dog; it could not be used on flights over 6 hours...and that was a stretch.

Pilots complained about the 757-300; that it was a far different aircraft from a handling capability than the -200

What I know about the A321:

When it is full for a transcon flight (SEA-CLT is the example), using an 11500 ft runway, it took 8000 ft of it to get airborne at a V2 speed of 178 kts. It had difficulty climbing to its first fix...5 miles down range at 3000 ft and as such on two occasions, it was left in MAX TOGA until 3000 ft. Not ideal. This is not a complaint against the airplane; far from it. I love it. However...

If you are thinking of adding more weight to this bird, it has to be reengined, which means a larger cowl, and a different wing to support it. Higher landing gear clearance would be required as would (most likely) a four wheel main bogey (vs. the existing two wheel main gear bogey). It will need additional fuel capacity to cover the range if you intend to fly it across the USA (you need 7 hours of gas to make this within domestic USA rules). In other words, a significant redesign.

I highly doubt Airbus would want to do that, given the fact that it's existing A320/A321 NEO is doing pretty well and will probably get them through the short term until they design another clean sheet aircraft, probably based on the lessons they are learning from the A350.

In other words, not in the next 10 years.....sorry mates.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
JHwk
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:11 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:07 pm

The best case for a 322 is the significant gap between the 321 and 358 for the Airbus lineup; it should help sell 788's.

The best case against I see is ROI. It would likely need a dedicated line with a larger wing, and the engineering effort would be quite substantial. Could you sell enough units to recoup this investment, without cannibalizing sales of more profitable models? Moreover, do the airlines see long-haul narrow bodies as the permanent strategy on 6-7 hour flights, or is it more of a current low-risk solution?

But, given the minimal investment Airbus has needed to put into the NEO compared to Boeing for the MAX, there might still be a good business case for it.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9175
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:17 pm

The hate for the 757-300 is strong in this thread.

The -300 was never intended to have more range than the -200. in fact, is there any 'simple stretch' that has more range than the model in which the stretch was achieved?
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting baw716 (Reply 10):
Stretching the airframe is one thing. Not changing the engines is quite another. The 757-300 is underpowered and therefore cannot be used on any kind of short field with a full payload.

The 757-300 is far from underpowered. It has a better T/W ratio than the A320 or 737-800 (assuming highest thrust and MTOW options). It obviously doesn't have the extraordinary short-field performance of the 757-200, but it does just fine out of most airports, and better than the A321 or the 737-900ER (a true pig).

Quoting baw716 (Reply 10):
it could not be used on flights over 6 hours...and that was a stretch.

Also wrong... it has been a mainstay of Hawaii-US service since it was introduced, flying plenty of 6-hour westbound flights with no trouble, despite the typically high fuel requirements to fly into Hawaii. It has longer range at maximum payload than the 737-800.

The 757-300 is a fine aircraft, but can't be replicated because no one will make another 40+ klb narrowbody engine. An A322 would have to make do with A321 engines, which is one reason it would need a new, larger wing.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
New wings would be necessary, so it would be a major investment. But in the long run (I'm thinking 2030) it might be worth it. Narrowbody capacities continue to climb, and there continues to be demand for very-low-CASM aircraft. Certainly, the A320 has more potential for this sort of stretch than the 737 does.

There is a realistic chance that Airbus and Boeing will introduce the successor for both A320 and B737 aircraft around that time frame.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:10 pm

I thing the example of the B 757-300 is not fair.
The EIS of the B 757-300 was march 1999 and the last orders were 2003. That is a very short run.
The frame was both to late and to early, being offered in the downturn of the 9/11 aftermath.
All the produced B 757-300 are still in use. Not all ordered 757-300 were produced, airlines were asked
to move to other models.

An A 322 would need a new bigger wing, the A 320 wing has reached its limit in the A 321.
A four wheel gear bogey has been done on a few A 320 already and should not pose a problem.

A new wing could lead to an A 321 size frame with increased range and a stretched frame with more pax
but a similar range as the A 321.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
A32x is bigger diameter than Boeing NB and A321 is significantly shorter in length than 757s

The A321 is only 2.5m shorter than a 752, not a significant distance, a 753 however is rather longer. The main difference however is in the structure with the A321 at around 48000Kg and the 752 at 58000Kg. To my mind this shows that whilst the 752 had the bones to be stretched, the A321 may well have little potential to grow.
Of course its this missing 10,000Kg that makes the economics of replacing a 752 so attractive.
 
flyinggoat
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:38 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:11 pm

I don't think a hypothetical A322 would be as large as a 753. The 752 is still larger than a A321, so If a A322 is built, my opinion is that it would be sized right at a 752, maybe slightly longer. An A322 the size of a 753 will never happen.

The A320 was offered with double bogie MLG, so perhaps putting double bogies on the A322 would allow for higher weights.

And, as far as wings go, perhaps root extensions can be installed for a larger wingspan, similar to what the AN-225 and MD80 have.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
New wings would be necessary

I think that investment alone would lead Airbus to a clean sheet design.

Quoting baw716 (Reply 10):
The 757-300 is underpowered

Not even close. It got uprated engines from both vendors, and out performs the nearest competeing size narrow bodies.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 13):
The 757-300 is far from underpowered. It has a better T/W ratio than the A320 or 737-800 (assuming highest thrust and MTOW options). It obviously doesn't have the extraordinary short-field performance of the 757-200, but it does just fine out of most airports, and better than the A321 or the 737-900ER (a true pig).

  

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
There is a realistic chance that Airbus and Boeing will introduce the successor for both A320 and B737 aircraft around that time frame.

Agree. Both makers have gone about as far as the base frames permit.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 15):
All the produced B 757-300 are still in use.

   And will be for a long time to come.



Disclaimer: Anyone disliking my comments, please PM me or reply with intellect in the open. The senseless whining to and resulting emails from the mods are getting old.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Shany
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:30 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
Karel, I'm starting to get more and more suspicious of the link between you and the defunct username Keesje...

not only you  
ETOPS - Engines Turn Or People Swim
 
User avatar
Faro
Topic Author
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 18):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 15):

As I mentioned in my opening post, the important thing is not to re-wing, that would prove prohibitive. How about a short stub extension with re-flapping?

And the fuselage stretch, as others have said, need not be 753-size. A further 2-3 meter stretch to 752 length would do nicely. Remember you are already getting quasi-TATL range on the A321NEO so there is a performance margin premium to support a A322 extension; with a little luck it may end up having A321Classic payload/range.


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
There is a A322neo concept floating on the internet.

What's the source of that concept diagram (website link etc.?)

Quoting American 767 (Reply 2):
I doubt it will have success with the airlines. Remember the 757-300? It didn't do well, only 55 or so were sold as nearly 1000 of the original 200s were sold.

And the 737-800 is selling much better than the -900ER.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20538
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:12 pm

The A321 already has a very high wing loading. All added stretch and payload is coming out of fuel. The takeoff performance of the A321, in particular hot/high, is already marginal (I'm surprised the A321NEO didn't go with a thrust bump).

A321 performance charts:
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...data/AC/Airbus-AC-A321-Jun2012.pdf

The A322 will be worse (less angle at takeoff means more velocity is required to clear a 50' obstacle due to the low angle of attack). This means even less fuel.

We're talking a plane suitable for 3 hour missions, at most. The A321 didn't start selling in the US well until it did TCON (and even then needs the sharklets for winter winds).

Quoting faro (Reply 20):
A further 2-3 meter stretch to 752 length would do nicely.

Only with a wingspan stretch and wing area increase. But then there will be gate issues.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:27 pm

There is a gap in the Airbus product line-up, but that gap is also present at its only competitor.

A realistic business plan for an A322 project might prove very difficult to produce, however, not least because the development period could get very close to that of an eventual A320neo successor. But, let's for a moment assume Airbus are indeed entertaining such a thought, the following hurdles would need to be overcome:

* Scaling the PW to deliver approx 40K lbs
* New wing (the present wing would need both span and chord enlargement, flap changes - better to start from scratch)
* New landing gear (longer, stronger)

... and we might as well stop here, as we've already made changes to the 3 fundamentals of the aircraft. Not worth it, in my opinion.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
The A321 didn't start selling in the US well until it did TCON (and even then needs the sharklets for winter winds).

In all fairness, it did pretty well outside the US for a pretty long time. There is more to airline life than plowing lonely furrows in the airways across the US.
Signature. You just read one.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:35 pm

I cannot see an A 322 being a viable aircraft. It sits on a short gear, even with a 4 wheel bogey, and would take a lot of care to keep from over-rotating on takeoff. The existing wing would have to be extensively reworked. It would make more sense for Airbus to go back to the drawing board and design a whole new aircraft specifically aimed as a 757 replacement. It should probably fall in the 190-220 seat area with true transcon/short trans-Atlantic range and a potential for increased range and would certainly require a new engine similar to the PW's presently on the 757. That means a taller gear and a 4 wheel bogey.

I would also attack the cabin with a meat ax. Design adequate overhead bin space, place lavs away from galley and cockpit areas and be specifically designed to board simultaneously from doors 1 and 2L. Include a decent closet for the FC cabin capable of actually holding clothes. Increase cabin width slightly to give people some room and clear up the annoying factors of the A319/320/321 series such as the noisy hydraulic pumps and the noise levels in the forward cabin areas from the engines. State of the art AVOD that is easily upgradable and wireless is a must.

If an airline would configure an entire fleet with 33-34 inch pitch they would have an incredibly loyal customer base. Unfortunately, people are getting bigger where airplanes are not. But that is a serious cost issue and I cannot see any airline changing from the existing 31" pitch.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4186
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 15):

Not all ordered 757-300 were produced, airlines were asked
to move to other models.

Honestly, I didn't know this. Who was it and what did they procure instead of the B 753?
 
United1689
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:48 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:46 pm

I think the first manufacturer to offer a true 752 replacement will hit the jackpot, and perhaps the A321NEO will be the one, who knows but an A322 is not going to be it. As for the A322, the A321 is stretching its legs already with both range and power so if the A322 were to happen, it would have to have more powerful engines and perhaps a bigger wing, and to really compete with a 752 it would need TATL range at the least.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
An A320 variant would have broader appeal, especially in Asia and other emerging market.

As for the regional A322 originally proposed, I don't think there's that much of a market for it outside of Europe. Carriers in Asia want range as they do in North America also.

Besides, I think Airbus would clean-sheet a NB design before they would stretch the A32X again, I think they saw what happened to the 737 after its (fourth?) stretch (the 739).

Quoting baw716 (Reply 10):
it could not be used on flights over 6 hours.

Actually UA1459 from IAH to ANC had a flight time of 7hrs 3min yesterday and it was a 753  

[Edited 2013-09-10 12:49:22]
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:50 pm

I don't know about a stretch - I'd like to see a shrink of the A321 to fill the "double gap" above the A320 (it's twice the length of the other two stretches). One based on the weights gear and wing of the A321 with genuine transatlantic range, one based on the A320 , an LCC's dream at around the magic 199 seats. Cheap as chips too.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:53 pm

I think a 322 is simply and exercise in futility, just the redesign of the wing makes it unfeasible.

Like the return of the 757 threads this one is beating a dead horse. A and B have a small hole in their line up but I guess no one is rushing to design an aircraft to plug that hole, the market is small and the investment too high.


TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
LH707330
Posts: 2369
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 28):
Like the return of the 757 threads this one is beating a dead horse. A and B have a small hole in their line up but I guess no one is rushing to design an aircraft to plug that hole, the market is small and the investment too high.

Bingo. The 738/A320 size is the sweet spot, and the 321 is the high end of the range. If enough customers really wanted the gap filled between the 321 and the 788, somebody would have built the plane by now. Between the boarding time problem with long NBs like the 753 and the gate spacing problem of WBs, the mid-haul ~250 pax market is a bit of a desert, and will likely remain so until the next generation of NBs comes out.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 24):
place lavs away from galley and cockpit areas and be specifically designed to board simultaneously from doors 1 and 2L. Include a decent closet for the FC cabin capable of actually holding clothes. Increase cabin width slightly to give people some room and clear up the annoying factors of the A319/320/321 series such as the noisy hydraulic pumps and the noise levels in the forward cabin areas from the engines.

All of those things will increase seat-mile costs and make the aircraft uncompetitive. In the end, that's all it's about.
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:59 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 29):
The 738/A320 size is the sweet spot

Yet the 739 is selling very well. I don't think the 753 is the most appropriate comparison as everyone here seems to be focusing. A slightly longer A321, with a bigger wing, higher MTOW could pose a valuable replacement for Transcon US, Hawaii, 752 replacement and a number of high density Asian routes.

Personally, I am wondering specifically about the 752 replacement. United has plenty of life in their RR 752's, but seeing as there is not a direct replacement under development, you could argue time is running out, as it will take years for an all new aircraft to take to the skies. An improved 737 or A32x could serve the purpuse, but nothing proposed now has te legs for daily Transatlantic flying. I know United makes a niche out of those routes, but they are profitable, and the 752 has served many different needs for airlines other than UA as well. Any other ideas what will replace UA's 752 routes, or will they just drop the less profitable as the 75's retire?
 
Extra300
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:04 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 27):
I don't know about a stretch - I'd like to see a shrink of the A321 to fill the "double gap" above the A320 (it's twice the length of the other two stretches). One based on the weights gear and wing of the A321 with genuine transatlantic range, one based on the A320 , an LCC's dream at around the magic 199 seats. Cheap as chips too.

This is a clever idea. Sort of an A320.5 IGW
 
DrColenzo
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:26 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:06 pm

Erm,

Hate to rain on the 757 or stretched A321 parade here, but the current A321 has 15 fewer seats that a a 757-200 in two class configuration but...

Airbus will add an over wing exit to the A321neo so it can increase seating capacity by rearranging interior fittings and using slimline seats.

See:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-lift-a321neo-to-235-seats-380226/

And:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_01_18_2013_p04-02-538213.xml

Seems like a nice addition to the capabilities of the A321 by using the logic of the 21st century to fill a potential demand for a higher capacity version of the same airframe without going to extremes and recreating the 757-300 situation all over again*

*or 767-400 for that matter.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:01 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 25):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 15):

Not all ordered 757-300 were produced, airlines were asked
to move to other models.

Honestly, I didn't know this. Who was it and what did they procure instead of the B 753?

Icelandair for one. Orders were removed from Boeing database.
The next frames Icelandair ordered were B 737-800.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20538
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:47 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 23):
In all fairness, it did pretty well outside the US for a pretty long time.

Agreed. But the current spike in sales to US airlines hasn't hurt the trend.   And that capacity has helped 'upsell' NZ, B6, AA, and DL. In time, all planes tend to gain capacity and thus appeal to new markets. It just happens the USA market demands more range than Europe. I'm a fan of the A321.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 33):
Seems like a nice addition to the capabilities of the A321 by using the logic of the 21st century to fill a potential demand for a higher capacity version of the same airframe without going to extremes and recreating the 757-300 situation all over again*

   And take advantage of slimline seats.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
BLRAviation
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:31 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
because a 787-8 is better suited for this kind of missions.

As per Dinesh Keskar President of Boeing India and Sales Head for Asia Pac, the 787-8 is meant for missions over 7 hours. From the original proposition

Quoting faro (Thread starter):
a business case for a further, ultimate stretch to yield a shorter range, high capacity A322?

the idea was a bigger but range limited narrow body, something like how the 787-1000 is to the wide-body 787 family.

In the US where the boarding is almost exclusively via one aero-bridge, an A322 will suffer the same pains of the B753. However, Asia and Europe where there are multiple boarding doors will these pains get overcome? I am doubtful since the PBBs will be used ahead of the wing.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):

A321 performance charts:
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...2.pdf

Sorry. File not found. Not Found

Quote:
The requested URL /fileadmin/medi...data/AC/Airbus-AC-A321-Jun2012.pdf was not found on this server.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1588
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:46 am

Quoting Shany (Reply 19):
Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
Karel, I'm starting to get more and more suspicious of the link between you and the defunct username Keesje...

not only you  

If it is indeed Keesje, he has changed his tone quite a bit and learned a thing or two about written English: Keesje had the (annoying, in my mind) habit of writing "capasity" with an s, which I've never seen Karel do…

And now, back to our regular content…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Max Q
Posts: 8553
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:38 am

Quoting baw716 (Reply 10):
The 757-300 is underpowered

Nonsense.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 13):

The 757-300 is far from underpowered. It has a better T/W ratio than the A320 or 737-800 (assuming highest thrust and MTOW options). It obviously doesn't have the extraordinary short-field performance of the 757-200, but it does just fine out of most airports, and better than the A321 or the 737-900ER (a true pig).

Quoting baw716 (Reply 10):
it could not be used on flights over 6 hours...and that was a stretch.

Also wrong... it has been a mainstay of Hawaii-US service since it was introduced, flying plenty of 6-hour westbound flights with no trouble, despite the typically high fuel requirements to fly into Hawaii. It has longer range at maximum payload than the 737-800.

The 757-300 is a fine aircraft, but can't be replicated because no one will make another 40+ klb narrowbody engine. An A322 would have to make do with A321 engines, which is one reason it would need a new, larger wing.

Exactly.

Quoting baw716 (Reply 10):

Pilots complained about the 757-300; that it was a far different aircraft from a handling capability than the -200

Once again not true, and especially not this Pilot, it handles a lot better than a -200, better, more linear pitch response and the same in roll.


The -300 is a fine machine with tremendous economics.

[Edited 2013-09-10 23:42:32]
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:41 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
Karel, I'm starting to get more and more suspicious of the link between you and the defunct username Keesje...
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 37):
If it is indeed Keesje, he has changed his tone quite a bit and learned a thing or two about written English: Keesje had the (annoying, in my mind) habit of writing "capasity" with an s, which I've never seen Karel do…

There's no chance they're the same person. I'm just sayin.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 15):
The EIS of the B 757-300 was march 1999 and the last orders were 2003. That is a very short run.

This. A thousand times this. 2001 doomed that airplane. If they were making them now, all those domestic 762s and 763s would be absolutely replaced in the US by the 757-300. Continental practically fell all over themselves to get those ATA 757-300s.

In fact, I think they could still be selling 757-300s today in the US. A limited number, surely not 1000, but hey.

NS
 
Max Q
Posts: 8553
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:54 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 39):
Continental practically fell all over themselves to get those ATA 757-300s.

You're right.


Funny thing is the 753 was not given serious consideration by Cal until someone finally clued in to it's
unbeatable economics, in fact there was a downright bias against it.


Until we started operating it !


For heavy domestic routes and west coast-Hawaii it's just unbeatable. We had more options on the -300
prior to 9-11 (I forget how many) as well as ten more options for the 762 and ten for the 764. These were all
cancelled in a very hasty decision after that terrible day.


Point, is, we could have used them all, management realized this and snapped up the ATA 753's but they couldn't get
as many as the original options we had and they took a lot of work to get up to our maintenance standard.



As I've said before Boeing could still be selling the 752 and 753 if they had stuck it out and committed to a NG version.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2483
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:29 am

I think it could actually be worth it to produce a A322. Consider that Airbus has nothing to really counter the B788, and a hypothetical A322 would outclass that on missions the A322 would be designed for (A-market, ~200-225 pax).

It would definitely need a bigger wing, new (or higher thrust versions of NEO) engines, longer/bigger landing gear, in addition to the obvious fuselage increases before and aft of the wing.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:21 am

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 36):
As per Dinesh Keskar President of Boeing India and Sales Head for Asia Pac, the 787-8 is meant for missions over 7 hours. From the original proposition

Sure, it's meant for missions over 7 hours, but it seems to serve a carrier like ANA very well on shorter, domestic flights.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:52 pm

Dr Colenzo hit the nail on the head in reply 33.

It is not a question whether a 322 can be built - Airbus themselves proposed it many years ago. But things change - and in the case of the 320 family much 'has' changed.
Lighter,blended winglets,smaller galley and absolute game changing state of the art GTF engines.

Airbus themselves have said they are actively looking at adding overwing exits to take the pax capacity to 236 and thats without (read article reply 33 linked to) changes to the seats.

Now that is not the same as (say) 300 plus pax in a 788. But neither would it be a global a 7-8 hours capability aircraft.

They would be very different aircraft for very different mission profiles. The fact is that the 788 is much more of an aircraft than many airlines need - but there is simply no alternative on the market.

As the articles state Airbus is actively looking at it at the moment and airlines have asked...Right now they have their hands full and until the 321 NEO has been flight tested they cannot 'know' exactly what it's performance will be. But if it is as projected- and some are saying on this forum that the engines will be 4% more efficient than advertised ....

Well I for one believe it is only a matter of time before this 321 variant seating 236 (and perhaps more in a 'crush' config' will be offered to the market.

As I recall one needs to add one member of staff crew for every additional 50 PAX (correct me if I am wrong). If so then if 2 more rows of seats were added at the expense of legroom then you would get a 248 seater (plus one for the additional crew member). IE 48 additional pax for one additional crew (from 199).This config would be a dream come true for charter and LCC airlines nothing would touch it for efficiency- and efficiency is the only game in town right now.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 34):
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 25):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 15):

Not all ordered 757-300 were produced, airlines were asked
to move to other models.

Honestly, I didn't know this. Who was it and what did they procure instead of the B 753?

Icelandair for one. Orders were removed from Boeing database.

Icelandair had only ordered two 753s and cancelled one. They also had a few options. Wasn't that cancellation when FI was having financial problems and going through a major restructuring? They were probably trying to reduce their financial commitments at the time.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2647
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:24 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
All that said, I highly doubt that it would happen. The 321 is already stretching the 320 frame to the limits, and among other things a further stretch would probably require new wings.

That's what I was thinking. On the other hand if there were a further stretch of the A321 that would require new wings (and new landing gear), those wings and landing gear could be incorporated into a long range version of the A321 that could replace transatlantic 757's.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
Icelandair had only ordered two 753s and cancelled one. They also had a few options. Wasn't that cancellation when FI was having financial problems and going through a major restructuring? They were probably trying to reduce their financial commitments at the time.

That is one cancelled, and there were asked to cancel. I do not imply any disagreement, Icelandair has been an Boeing only customer for quite some time.
I know that there were others who were asked to cancel, Boeing was in a hurry to close down the line.

Icelandair had there main restructuring before they bought the first B 757.

Icelandair has since than bought about 20 used ones, all B 757-200, B 757-300 have not been on the market.
They will add 3 more for the next summer.
 
JHwk
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:11 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 45):
On the other hand if there were a further stretch of the A321 that would require new wings (and new landing gear), those wings and landing gear could be incorporated into a long range version of the A321 that could replace transatlantic 757's.

I'd say you are right and that is about the only way it could happen-- two birds with one stone...
 
panam330
Posts: 2168
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:11 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 24):
If an airline would configure an entire fleet with 33-34 inch pitch they would have an incredibly loyal customer base.

Their name is jetBlue.  
Quoting Extra300 (Reply 32):
This is a clever idea. Sort of an A320.5 IGW

According to this forum (years back), B6 themselves actually asked for just that because the 321 was something of a dog a half decade ago. Looks like the airframe improvements quickly changed their mind!
 
Max Q
Posts: 8553
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: A321...to A322 Stretch?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:10 am

Problem with the concept in reply six is there's too much fuselage ahead of the wing to be balanced properly.


I see why they did it that way, it makes it appear there would not be a tail clearance problem on rotation with
a longer aft fuselage.


I don't see how the A321 can be stretched further without extending the gear and I don't see Airbus doing that.
The NEO looks promising though.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos