32andBelow
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 148):
Not where I'm working. And what we are expected to wear is terrible, even in comparison to UA's uniforms.

I just know for some contracts they where the operating carrier uniform.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 149):
I disagree customers should always know whom they are talking to a UA employee or a contract company employee

Customers don't tend to notice the difference between me wearing an oxford shirt or oxford blue button-down with navy pants, light blue tie, and gold nametag versus the UA employees wearing light blue or pinstriped white shirts with charcoal pants and blazers or black sweaters, striped ties, and silver nametags.

Honestly, the only time the average customer is going to know or care if the person they're takling to is an employee of the airline or a contractor is when the person has done something wrong. Funny thing is, if they have, the Airline is QUICK to say "That was one of our contractors." But if the employee does an exemplary job, well, then the airline claims them as an employee.

Whatever your position on outsourcing (and mine is probably more similar to yours than you might think, complex as my thoughts on the matter may be), it shouldn't matter who you're dealing with as long as they're doing the job properly. And they should project the same image of the company whether they're paid with a check that says United, DGS, or Bob's Temp Service on it. (And there is a bit of irony in me saying this as I have protested certain language in UA's uniform code, which technically doesn't apply to me, quite thoroughly.)

I won't even get into the fallacy of the general assumption that mainline employees always provide better service, either.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
jolau1701
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:24 am

Quoting cle757 (Reply 107):
The express operation (ramp) is outsourced at SFO

To SkyWest. From their perspective, it's insourced.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 141):
Good contract employees will have a pretty easy time coming online at the new station when the next positions open up. How many people are going to move for ticket counter wages anyways?

Wrong. These positions will most likely all be gobbled up by mainline employees who are transferring in. There would be quite the heated union battle if the company hired off the street before accommodating displaced workers.

Sorry if the contract worker has been a great employee for 12 years with the contracting company, they can go kick sand. We displaced mainline employees will have 100% priority over the contractors when it comes to this insourcing.

How many people will move? Historically, 20-30% will. There are over 2,000 people affected by this, so anywhere from 400-600+ will elect to transfer and take these newly created jobs within the company. The other 1400-1600 will take furlough or retire.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 147):
I think UA is giving UA uniforms to the vendors that should never be allowed. I also heard they deduct $300 form the low paid employees for a uniform that costs maybe $100 at most.

Usually when "you heard something from someone" it's BS, and this most certainly is. UA is not making a profit on selling uniforms.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 149):
I disagree customers should always know whom they are talking to a UA employee or a contract company employee

From the companies point of view you always want consistency and as such would want them in you uniform. However, they are not dressed as such for two reasons: 1) They are often working different carriers flights during a shift and thus would have to change between AA/DL/UA uniforms, instead they just wear a neutral uniform from the contractor, 2) The company Unions would vilify such "scum" for being allowed to wear the uniform of a good wholesome IAM employee who would never stoop to such a sub-human level of being a contractor...
 
eugdjinn
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 153):
Sorry if the contract worker has been a great employee for 12 years with the contracting company, they can go kick sand. We displaced mainline employees will have 100% priority over the contractors when it comes to this insourcing.

You might want to put a chock in that attitude there. Keep in mind that there are a couple of classes of outsourcing companies. SkyWest, and Air Wisconsin have been long term partners working to provide fellow professionals who were well-trained and promoted as well as supported United. We worked and ran stations and the express operations in hubs efficiently and we earned seniority and annual raises that recognized our quality, and our knowledge. We deserve a little respect from you. We often got very little. (And there were many times I knew more, and did more for the passenger than the mainline agents could or would.)

We are not, and were not your enemy. In fact, I was trained by a number of former mainline aces, which is why I was capable in Apollo, not just FastAir. I earned and deserved my flight benefits.

And not once, but twice, Chicago gave my job away. Once to DGS, so someone making $9/hr could do it so badly that mainline agents had to be posted on TDY from SFO to rescue them for months at a time. Then a second time so that mainline agents could have a job.

Alright, I get it. Chicago screwed us all. Fine. But don't ask me to have sympathy for you when you cop this kind of attitude. I am not a bottom-feeder contractor. I have twice refused job offers from such.

I was sympathetic to your plight, despite the fact that your union and your votes set this in motion... but wow, not so much anymore. Same old mainline attitude. Tell me, did you refuse to learn Shares too? I loved how professional so many of you were on that! (And it was so easy for any of us who knew Apollo or DeltaTerm!)
 
777ord
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:40 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 122):

Truth be told, they really didn't have much of an option. With jobs so hard to come by, let alone GOOD ones. The $4 top out cut is nothing compared to fighting for a new job with your now former colleagues.

I read the recent announcement for full insource in various stations. So, to clarify, that means the vendors for sky cap and wheel chairs, aircraft cleaning etc... are now in house? I suppose I will see many of my old employees in SAN now. However, my former station is in the point and perhaps that will prevent it.

IAM is terrible. I never supported them, and certainly consider them a bunch of crooks as the sole contract these agents agreed to, got them NOTHING. From past experiences with them. Things will get a LOT worse before it gets better.

Want to know how UA can save some jobs, easily? DO NOT PROVIDE POSITIVE SPACE TO ANY AND ALL IAM (employed, not uA-IAM) EMPLOYEES!!!! There is no reason why they must PS5 them from home to WHQ every week to do nothing.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:56 pm

-

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 155):

Let me tell you the attitudes of contractors at my airports. Ever since this announcement, the contractors mock us, yell at us, tell us how they can't wait to be working our flights. I have no sympathy for the contract agents who will be out of a job due to the insourcing. Because most of you contractors have no sympathy for the thousands of us losing our jobs.

Contractors deserve very little respect from us. Especially when the contractors have submitted 28 undercutting bids to be realized this year. 28 stations closed because people will take jobs for $8-11 an hour. 28 stations closed because these companies can get away with hiring bottom of the barrel employees who don't give a rats ass about customer service. 2,200+ employees going home tonight wondering what they will do next, because a bottom feeder has under bid them in 28 different locations all at once. Two thousand, two hundred people going home tonight knowing their lifelong career "is over".

I have no sympathy for us insourcing work and kicking contractors out where we can. Because we are getting booted elsewhere. We will take the jobs we can take. The contractors in those stations can maybe transfer to an outsourced city for an $8 an hour job if they are that upset.

Also, I was trained in SHARES before the merger. And I had no problem learning Unimatic after the merger. Don't make assumptions about me. There are a few mainline employees who raised a stink about learning new systems, but most got over it and did their jobs.

This isn't the right thread for you if you want to praise contractors. You won't receive a warm welcome from many of us.

Edit: And for the record, SkyWest is a great company. I do appreciate a lot of their workers. They are a different animal than what I am referring to. They are an actual airline, and they do have some sense of loyalty to the main brand they are working for. The contractors I am mainly referring to are the DGS, G2, FSS, ASIG, Simplicity, Menzies, etc. of the world. The true bottom feeders. These are the jobs we are insourcing, not many SKYW. I do not feel sorry for the DGS work we are insourcing, I do feel sorry for SkyWest in DEN. I think they were a good partner (albeit a bit slow at times with gate checks), and sorry to see them lose their jobs to Simply-Shitty.

[Edited 2015-01-15 08:00:52]
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
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United_fan
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting Reply 97):
So what I interperet from that is UA wants in house staffing only at its hubs. Sad that some truly dedicated employees will be ousted for more $9/hr jobs with high turnover rates

I still cannot fathom that someone would be willing to do a ramp job for $9 an hour . Not with the stree,noise,heat/cold ,lifting involved . No thanks. There are way easier inside jobs available.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
T5towbar
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 150):
I just know for some contracts they where the operating carrier uniform.

Most of the time, the contractors are wearing their own uniform. I know that Swissport has their own distinct uniforms, while others wear the generic blue with the company logo. Safety vests are another thing. Some wear their companies vest, while some may wear the UA or AA vest. Depends on the situation.

BTW: Notice, that we can't order our yearly allotment of uniforms till after the 22nd of Jan. Strange.......

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 153):
Wrong. These positions will most likely all be gobbled up by mainline employees who are transferring in. There would be quite the heated union battle if the company hired off the street before accommodating displaced workers.

Sorry if the contract worker has been a great employee for 12 years with the contracting company, they can go kick sand. We displaced mainline employees will have 100% priority over the contractors when it comes to this insourcing.

The vendors knew that their time in the split operated stations were limited and our people would be taking over these spots. It was just a matter of either expiring or breaking the contracts. But our people were coming since these are opened.

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 155):
You might want to put a chock in that attitude there. Keep in mind that there are a couple of classes of outsourcing companies. SkyWest, and Air Wisconsin have been long term partners working to provide fellow professionals who were well-trained and promoted as well as supported United. We worked and ran stations and the express operations in hubs efficiently and we earned seniority and annual raises that recognized our quality, and our knowledge. We deserve a little respect from you. We often got very little. (And there were many times I knew more, and did more for the passenger than the mainline agents could or would.)

We are not, and were not your enemy. In fact, I was trained by a number of former mainline aces, which is why I was capable in Apollo, not just FastAir. I earned and deserved my flight benefits.

You guys were our partners of course, and never harbored any ill will, but UA wanted to go to a lower grade contractor, hence Simplicity in DEN. Enough said....

Quoting 777ord (Reply 156):
I read the recent announcement for full insource in various stations. So, to clarify, that means the vendors for sky cap and wheel chairs, aircraft cleaning etc... are now in house? I suppose I will see many of my old employees in SAN now. However, my former station is in the point and perhaps that will prevent it.

No. Just the ATW (Customer Service) and BTW (Ramp) positions only. The remnants of the split ops. Everything else is the same.

Quoting 777ord (Reply 156):
IAM is terrible. I never supported them, and certainly consider them a bunch of crooks as the sole contract these agents agreed to, got them NOTHING. From past experiences with them. Things will get a LOT worse before it gets better.

Like anything else, its the leadership that needs to be changed. And members educated. I will still support my Union and my District, but things must change. That's all I will say on that.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 157):
Contractors deserve very little respect from us. Especially when the contractors have submitted 28 undercutting bids to be realized this year. 28 stations closed because people will take jobs for $8-11 an hour. 28 stations closed because these companies can get away with hiring bottom of the barrel employees who don't give a rats ass about customer service. 2,200+ employees going home tonight wondering what they will do next, because a bottom feeder has under bid them in 28 different locations all at once. Two thousand, two hundred people going home tonight knowing their lifelong career "is over".

And that's what we are faced with. The cheapening and devaluing of a good profession. We all started out low, but we did our jobs; put the work in; and was rewarded with a decent career. And it didn't come overnight either. We been through a lot and we deserve what we are worth. I look across the ramp and see the "revolving door" every day. Some of my colleagues came from contractors, looking to do better and appreciate working for a REAL airline knowing that they will be rewarded for their hard work and effort. It's depressing to know that has come down to this. The want ads in some of the cities are out already seeing people for 8-10 dollars per hour. You can do better working inside, and that's why you will have the revolving door because many can't hack it out here.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
CALMSP
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 159):

so, when OO said they didnt want to do the DEN ramp anymore, what is UA supposed to do?
 
jetmatt777
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 159):
The vendors knew that their time in the split operated stations were limited and our people would be taking over these spots. It was just a matter of either expiring or breaking the contracts. But our people were coming since these are opened.

The insourcing announcement yesterday is not news. We knew of the insourcing with LOA6 when we signed the contract. They just haven't made a big deal about it until yesterday. That way the union can come to the membership saying "we fought for your jobs and the company is going to provide some [for the displaced workers]" and the company can say "we care about you. Your job will be available in a different city provided you want it." Smoke and mirrors, the insourcing agreement is a year old, but they are singing the song now to make the union and company look good and to deflect some heat both have been receiving.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 172
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 160):
so, when OO said they didnt want to do the DEN ramp anymore, what is UA supposed to do?

I don't think that is true. OO was fighting tooth and toenail to retain that. Likewise to retain SFO ramp, and LAX ops. The only way I can imagine OO saying, "no thanks" is if United was offering such a pittance that it wasn't worth it. As it was, the operation was squeezed for money and was close to unsustainable.

The fundamental problems OO had were these: OO has NEVER understood that the DEN operation was NOTHING AT ALL like SLC. And until St George could wrap its tiny little brains around that, it was always doomed to fail in DEN. And on top of that, the current St. George boardroom and Exec suite is full of MBAs that think people are disposable like diapers and that they can always just replace them with more. The true costs of training were only just starting to make it through to the bottom line, and that seemed to create confusion, not clarity. OO is a troubled company right now, and not one that values its frontline. (It's also rife with nepotism and a lot of managers that have risen past their true level of competence.)

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 161):
We knew of the insourcing with LOA6 when we signed the contract. They just haven't made a big deal about it until yesterday.

But it's largely a sham. In PDX, there used to be an OO station of 30 employees handling a fair number of flights. The contract was awarded to Eagle, and is probably about 10-15 positions. Ditto SEA. With the retirement of the EMB-120 from SkyWest's fleet and from NW flying, there isn't really a need for those people. So, that isn't many jobs.

How many positions are there, really??? (My very real fear for you all is that the dangled a carrot that only looks nice, and is hollow.)

The juicy, job-rich stations are SFO and LAX. And the same people who just sacrificed you on the altar of cost-savings just signed up for another couple of years of SkyWest running SFO ramp for UAX. Just FYI.

(Oh, and I appreciate your clarifications. Again, my ten years with SkyWest, five as a supervisor, I really did give a damn. And I learned Shares before the cutover and spent time with mainline CO folks in IAH before it went live too.... I've just hit the point where I don't ever really want to touch the United product again for anything less than $16 an hour, and I'm really happy being in the land of Delta where I'm allowed to take care of passengers properly. $mi$ek is evil. And I for one am tired of his uprooting my life. Good luck. I hate watching one of the world's great airlines kill itself.)
 
COSPN
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 162):
. OO is a troubled company right now, and not one that values its frontline. (It's also rife with nepotism and a lot of managers that have risen past their true level of competence.)

Sounds like UA to me. "Trip over a dollar to save penny" No one is Chicago is going to monitor aircraft damage MBRs and lost customers to DL and AA that have "Mainline Employees" in station. In CMH they incured huge fines because the vendor had no idea about customs seals and that they needed them to work the YYZ contract flights..

UA will have to pay the bill because they caused the problem. Not the new vendor (not notified) and not AirCanada (not notified and very upset) ..

penny wise and pound (dollar) foolish. that is the new UA..

SO what happened to that Girl at WHQ they fired Before Christmas ? they blamed her for the DEN mess ?? Jun 1 for a start date right as school lets out gonna be a mess.. I think McDonalds Pays more than $8 you get free meal and free Uniform..

The Vendor is trying to make the employes pay $300 its crazy.
 
CALMSP
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 162):

the situation in DEN was created when UA brought the gate operations in-house. That left OO with an imbalance in efficiencies and saw it as a money losing operation and didnt bid for the ramp only contract.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting United_fan (Reply 158):
I still cannot fathom that someone would be willing to do a ramp job for $9 an hour . Not with the stree,noise,heat/cold ,lifting involved . No thanks. There are way easier inside jobs available.

Depends on where you are, how many flights you have to work, etc etc etc. I'll tell you that I've worked retail (MANAGEMENT!) for the same rate as a contract ramper. I've worked warehouses for a better rate. In the end, I still chose to go back to the ramp. Why? Maybe I'm crazy. But, I can tell you that I don't feel half as tired after an 8 hour shift on the ramp as I did after an 8 hour shift in retail or a warehouse. Not that I work 8 hour shifts much...

The ramp is heavy lifting, it's noisy, it can be stressful when you've got 3 planes in the gate and only enough people to work 2.5 of them... but, really, in all but a very few cases, you're only working 1/3 to 1/2 of your shift. Other jobs at the same pay level you are on the grind your ENTIRE shift.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 157):
The contractors I am mainly referring to are the DGS

You know the D in DGS stands for Delta, right? DGS has some really crappy operations, yes, but we also have some really awesome ones. Overall, we may not be as good as SkyWest in the eyes of most, but we're also not on the same level as some other contractors that can't even offer their employees medical benefits, to say nothing of flight benefits.

Based on what I hear from people who work the local station, I'd take DGS over, say, Envoy. Or ATS, which is the contractor that took over our F9 contract in 2013. Sure, I'd jump at the chance to work for SkyWest... if the pay was better than what I'm getting now.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 153):
Wrong. These positions will most likely all be gobbled up by mainline employees who are transferring in. There would be quite the heated union battle if the company hired off the street before accommodating displaced workers.

He did say that they'd have an easy time getting jobs WHEN positions were available... which I took to mean after there were transfers if there were still opens... or down the line as people quit, retire, or (yes) get fired.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 157):
Contractors deserve very little respect from us.

And you wonder why some have very little respect for you...

I love my job. I don't always like the company that writes my paychecks, and I don't always have warm and fuzzy feelings for the company we work under contract for. But I love my job. I care about my coworkers and teammates, whether they get paid by DGS, United, ExpressJet, SkyWest, Mesa, TransStates, or any other part of this huge mess we try to keep rolling every day.

I will openly say that I am not going to miss a few of those people who get displaced, one way or another, by the outsourcing and insourcing going on, but I do respect that they still are people who have to make a living. They're people who also cared about their jobs and felt an investment in what they were doing. I respect them all, whether or not I LIKE them. You, on the other hand, I might have some trouble respecting, based on what I've seen you post here.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 154):
2) The company Unions would vilify such "scum" for being allowed to wear the uniform of a good wholesome IAM employee who would never stoop to such a sub-human level of being a contractor.

Lovely rhetoric, isn't it? Funny thing is, with every case of new vendor replacing company's own employees I've seen, there are at least a handful that need the job in their current location more than they need the mainline uniform... and they end up working for the contractor doing the same job they've been doing. Usually they're at the pay level where the cut isn't severe, just the top-out ends up reduced... but sometimes they're ready to retire and do so, but keep working for the new company for something to do, or because they can't imagine doing anything else any place else... or, in a few cases where it works out, to have TWO sets of flight benefits.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 157):
bottom of the barrel employees who don't give a rats ass about customer service.

While I realize it's hardly representative of the system as a whole, I can tell you that here the contract employees have consistently matched or beaten mainline employees in nearly every metric over the past 2 years. Controllable delays, bag handling, and, yes, customer satisfaction. There are people who care and people who don't at every level, and it's a matter of how management handles things as to how many people who don't care are allowed to stick around.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
maxamuus
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 165):
contract employees have consistently matched or beaten mainline employees in nearly every metric over the past 2 years.

Hope they can sleep well at night knowing they just got a 20+ year employee canned because they are willing to work for 9 dollars a hour.

Sorry, my heart doesn't bleed for the contract employee. Join a damn union and demand a livable wage and benefits so if you are sick or your family is sick you dont need to go bankrupt. The union haters be damned, but these 9 dollar a hour corporate "slaves" are the scourge of the airline industry.

These cheap contract workers have reduced once good paying middle income jobs to Taco Bell jobs, all so UA can try to reap in more than a billion dollars in a quarter for executives and shareholders. So many will say how its good for UA's bottom line and good for profit, then bitch moan and complain when service levels are dreadful. What the hell did you expect?

I think half of the people on this website are bi-polar. They want excellent service and the carpet rolled out for them, yet they defend the airlines hiring people for damn near minimum wage and then bitch how such a such airline has went down hill.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 166):
Sorry, my heart doesn't bleed for the contract employee.

I didn't ask it to.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 166):
Hope they can sleep well at night knowing they just got a 20+ year employee canned because they are willing to work for 9 dollars a hour.

If the local employees end up "canned" it'll be because they chose not to keep the job. And with absolutely 0 mainline flights, the writing was on the wall a decade ago, years before the merger.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 166):
Join a damn union

Because it's JUST that simple in every case, isn't it?   

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 166):
demand a livable wage and benefits so if you are sick or your family is sick you dont need to go bankrupt.

You know, I get more than $9 an hour. That IS often the starting rate, and a lot of people stay there, but not everyone. I also get medical benefits, dental, life insurance, and short term disability at decent rates. Not all contractors are created equal.

Note, I don't think that contracting out is a good thing across the board, but it's also not a bad thing across the board. Without it small cities would get no service at all. People in places like Huntsville, Lexington, and the entirety of the Dakotas would have to drive immense distances to the nearest airport. But, hey, what do I know? I'm just the "scum" contractor. I'm also the still-smiling, helpful guy that you'll WISH was helping you get rebooked when you get stuck on a weather delay instead of the grouchy, should-already-be-retired mainline agent who bitches about every policy change that comes down... even the ones that make complete sense without any insider knowledge. Or you could try calling the by-the-book res agent who's never worked a ticket counter in their life and refuses to deviate even a micron from the written policy and rebooks you for the exact same fare bucket three weeks from next Tuesday because "that's all that's available."

I think cities that see regular, significant mainline service should have mainline employees. And by significant, I mean more than one turn a day in a sea of RJs. But, I have no qualms about working as a contract agent in a city that sees no mainline aircraft and hasn't for years... and won't for years while UA dawdles with increasing the average plane size.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 166):
These cheap contract workers have reduced once good paying middle income jobs to Taco Bell jobs

Are the employees the cause, or the symptom? The service sector as a whole has lowered in wages and benefits dramatically in the last generation. Why? The reasons are numerous, but it boils down to that the people with the required skill level are plentiful. Note, skill level, not specific experience or attitude. And while you might say "join a union", that hasn't worked so well as a cure anywhere else, why would it in the airline business. The solution, however, will not be found in vilifying people trying to make a living or get their foot in the door in hopes of moving up, but in working for an actual change in business practices by spreading awareness and getting people to vote with the only voice most companies value: MONEY.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 166):
So many will say how its good for UA's bottom line and good for profit, then bitch moan and complain when service levels are dreadful.

There we go again with the whole "Contract automatically means bad service" tripe. Still, I'll give you that, overall, the more UA outsources the lower their customer satisfaction will be. Not because every agent doesn't care, but because management seems not to.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
maxamuus
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:41 am

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 167):

I guess you are happy and have accepted your fate as cheap labor. You can shout it from the rood tops all you want, but at the end of the day you are being paid half what a mainline worker makes, your benefits are shit compared to that mainline workers.

Yes you took his job and you might feel great about it, but just like in DEN, the mainline company will outsource you once you earn too much too and you will be serving fries in the terminal wondering how this could happen to you.

[Edited 2015-01-15 20:42:10]
 
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:04 am

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 168):
you will be serving fries in the terminal

I can guarantee you that won't be the case. I may move on, I may move up, I may get kicked out the door, but I have basic plans in place for all of the above. None of them include selling food in the airport terminal. And if it helps your mindset about the world to imagine me gleefully accepting of my wage level, have fun with that. Meanwhile, I'll be living my life and moving forward... without the bitter outlook that requires me to despise the guy that comes in to replace me, even if it's not by my choice.

Here's the rub... the UA employees here are likely out. It is entirely possible that the company I work for is out as well. I could very well be on the street in 3-6 months looking for another job. I'll survive. And I won't spew hatred at someone who needs a job badly enough to work for a place I chose not to.

And before you start your pro-union, anti-contract reply, keep in mind that I actually am closer to this, in this station, than you will ever be. I work for a contractor, yes, but I've known many of the mainline employees since I was 14. I consider them friends and family. I don't want them to be out... but I also recognize the reality of the situation here: UA does not operate mainline flights. They could, easily. There are three flights to ORD within 2 hours in the morning and back-to-back flights to EWR and IAH around midday. It wouldn't take much wrangling of the schedule to put in a couple of mainline turns and a RON. But they don't. Why? Not my department. I will just be the best agent I can so that I have the experience on my resume and a list of recommendations to hand the interviewer if I choose to continue in this field and apply at a mainline carrier down the line.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
jolau1701
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:35 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:02 am

How one accepts life as a corporate pawn, I'll never understand.
 
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antoniemey
Posts: 1417
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:12 am

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 170):
How one accepts life as a corporate pawn, I'll never understand.

Unless you run your own business or are independently wealthy, you ARE a corporate pawn, at least in economic and labor terms.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
jolau1701
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:35 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:32 am

Perhaps I should have explained further.

How can you accept that sort of life? Barely able to make ends meet, unable to make a lot of long term plans because your company is on a contract for two or three years, maybe you'll be grandfathered into the new company, maybe you won't, trying to save what little money you can so you have enough to get by in case you are unemployed for a long period of time, etc. etc. In all that, knowing you are expendable.

Frankly, I've already gone through that and I do not share your optimism.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:44 am

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 172):
Frankly, I've already gone through that and I do not share your optimism.

1: I don't plan to be here forever. In fact, much of the reason I took this job (again) was for it's potential to either transfer me to where I want to live or get me good experience to take to an airline.

2: My living situation is such that the pay level, which is not great, but also not as terrible as I have dealt with in the past, allows me to make ends meet and usually have some fun, too.

3: The schedule is flexible enough and, at this point, almost perfectly tailored for me to do what I want to do when I want to do it.

I reiterate from above: I love my job. That is, the type of work and the people I work with. the company I work for and the situation I work in, not always so much love.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:36 am

Well please thank your parents or Girlfriend for helping pay your living situation so you can work for a multi billion dollar company. I feel sad what is happening to the younger generations 
 
northwestair
Posts: 515
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:27 pm

I look at all contractors that took away Union Mainline jobs as Scabs and if the Contractors are Union then it's a shame that they would even do this to fellow Union Brothers and Sisters. I still find it disturbing that at my airport that a contracted ramp worker for DL asked me ( mainline Airline employee) what does UA stand for cause he was told to take a rerouted bag and drop it off at UA. I just told him you have fun with that and maybe you should go ask the DL ticket counter about that.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
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United_fan
Posts: 6691
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:35 pm

Well,if people didn't apply and take $9/hour jobs,then companies would have to pay more.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:54 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 176):
Well,if people didn't apply and take $9/hour jobs
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

"The civilian labor force participation rate edged down by 0.2 percentage point to 62.7 percent in December."

In reality, there are literally millions of Americans out of work that would like to work. We've got politicians that can't wait to open up the US marketplace to millions of undocumented foreigner workers and they know full-well what wages these workers will accept since they will not be eligible for most govt. assistance programs.

There are plenty of people that would be grateful to have any job at all...including the $9/hour ones. That's the new American landscape.
 
rj777
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:11 pm

 
eugdjinn
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 166):
Hope they can sleep well at night knowing they just got a 20+ year employee canned because they are willing to work for 9 dollars a hour.

I hope that you get a chance to spend 6-12 months out of work, burn up your entire savings, are forced to cash in any retirement you may have, lose any fixed assets you have, and run out of any unemployment compensation all of it while desperately trying to persuade someone, anyone to hire you for what you think you are worth... only to find yourself grateful that you can finally get hired into a $9/hr job where they 'take a chance on you' even though you're 'overqualified'. Frankly, it isn't all that much fun. But having been there and done that, you really come off as a truly pretentious and self-aggrandizing putz. Sometimes, people don't have a better option. Bully for you that you haven't been there. Don't throw stones. It was, after all, your management that put some of us there. And they have no bones about putting you there too.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 168):
Yes you took his job and you might feel great about it, but just like in DEN, the mainline company will outsource you once you earn too much too and you will be serving fries in the terminal wondering how this could happen to you.

And you want my sympathy? Frankly, I'm at the point where I will be perfectly happy watching United crash and burn. I have never seen a company so badly managed in all my life. There is no excuse. And I was once the ultimate United fanboy. 10 years of service. 10 years of mainline attitudes like yours toward us as good contractors with decent pay and benefits and then you show such glee when we lose our jobs....

and you want my sympathy? well. I seem to be out. I hope you find yourself a job with one of those bottom tier contractors and get to eat your words.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4141
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 162):
How many positions are there, really??? (My very real fear for you all is that the dangled a carrot that only looks nice, and is hollow.)

There will be several hundred full time positions created.

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 179):
10 years of service. 10 years of mainline attitudes like yours toward us as good contractors with decent pay and benefits and then you show such glee when we lose our jobs....

This is just the wrong thread for you to be bringing this up. It really is. I'm a mainline ramper, and as I mentioned up thread, I do appreciate a lot of the workers at SkyWest. At all the companies who vendor for us, whether flying or ground handling or customer service. They are the top of the list when it comes to professionalism and loyalty to the brand they are serving. However, you must understand -- in this thread. 2,200 of us are losing our jobs to contractors. You are simply posting in the wrong thread. We are pissed, we are angry, we are upset, we are sad. You are putting yourself in a den of lions right now. Just as if a Simplicity worker came into the DEN re-outsourcing thread and was telling you how crappy SkyWest is and how awesome Simplicity is. It's just not a good idea to introduce yourself voluntarily into this thread. I'm not telling you that you are not welcome to share your opinions, but just be warned you are dealing with a ton of people who are losing their jobs and their spirits are not very rosy at the moment.

I know quite a few rampers who share my same opinion of SkyWest, I'm not alone in my opinion.

As I mentioned, ever since Monday, some of the contractors at my airport have been mocking us, yelling at us, bragging about how they are going to start working our flights. Attitude and un-professionalism is so sour it makes my head want to explode.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
lat41
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:45 pm

Short of the outsourcing, United seems to be letting these and other medium cities die on the vine with lousy aircraft, thinning and poorly times schedules and indifferent customer service. Small wonder the carrier is getting rid of main line people. I wonder how many cities resemble Providence where the operation and scheduling in recent years, seems to have been designed to chase business away!
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 180):
I know quite a few rampers who share my same opinion of SkyWest, I'm not alone in my opinion.

As I mentioned, ever since Monday, some of the contractors at my airport have been mocking us, yelling at us, bragging about how they are going to start working our flights. Attitude and un-professionalism is so sour it makes my head want to explode.

Jet - I get it, I truly do. As I've said when I jumped your caboose, I have literally been there. And I was there in Denver when your mainline coworkers treated us badly and were so gleeful. What I am trying to say is this - do not chase away your allies. However hard it may be, you need to be as graceful here and in public as possible.

As a gay man, and a student of politics, you really need to consider this carefully. There are limits to what you can do. In current day America, the union has been vilified quite successfully. And even when you are hurting, it pays to be cautious and to not speak from anger. The people whose influence may be best able to assist you may well be outside your immediate circle - and alienating us is not helpful. You want to keep me as an ally, right? Its not the gay/lesbian folk who have carried the day on marriage for all - its the parents and friends who have loudly said, "Oh grow up!" Here too, it's the louder voices of the masses who can say, "You know, I'll book Delta or American. I just can't stomach a company who treats its own like this." That's what will break Smisek. That's what ALL of you need to get out and start.
Stop crying, stop being angry, start doing!

And I'll go one step further. Remember that I am fluent in Shares, cargo, baggage, was in ticketing (I'm rusty but I learn fast) and can rebook like the wind. My city is one to be outsourced. If you all piss me off, how much is my knowledge worth to the incoming vendor? I was a supervisor for five years. Any bets on whether I could pull a supervisory slot here? With what I know, I'll bet I could wiggle more than $9 an hour. Part of making your job more secure is making it harder for contractors to take over, right? So you want me sympathetic, don't you? Don't you want me to stay away from them?

That's what I've been trying to point out to you. I spend my time on the forums supporting every hardworking ramper/CSR regardless and trying to help the uninformed understand a little of what we do. But I'll call you on your bad behaviour. This is not the place to vent, not if it turns people off. I get it, you hurt. But y'all were not very kind to us when we were hurting after Denver, or after each round of station awards where we lost jobs. It's disingenuous to now demand that you be treated kindly and allowed to throw tantrums like five year olds.

United management has yet again proven that it views all of its workers like robots. O.k. What are you gonna do about it now that you're on the receiving end?
 
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antoniemey
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 180):
As I mentioned, ever since Monday, some of the contractors at my airport have been mocking us, yelling at us, bragging about how they are going to start working our flights. Attitude and un-professionalism is so sour it makes my head want to explode.

Which makes those individuals terrible human beings. Reciprocating just lowers you.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 174):

Well please thank your parents or Girlfriend for helping pay your living situation so you can work for a multi billion dollar company. I feel sad what is happening to the younger generations 

You know, in many cities, it IS possible to live alone for around $10/hr. Not easy, by any means, but possible. Actually, I managed for over a year in Cleveland at $8.85/hour. That was a convenience store MANAGEMENT rate.

No, I don't live alone now. Not because I can't, but because it is more convenient for both me AND the person I'm living with to split the expenses. That's kind of normal in today's world. If two people live together, be they in a relationship, related, friends, or just strangers looking to make life a little cheaper, they split costs.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 174):
I feel sad what is happening to the younger generations

Based on your profile we're the same generation. Stow the attitude.

Quoting northwestair (Reply 175):
I still find it disturbing that at my airport that a contracted ramp worker for DL asked me ( mainline Airline employee) what does UA stand for cause he was told to take a rerouted bag and drop it off at UA.

That's a training issue... and I've met rampers from both mainline and contractors that still don't know where other airlines' bagrooms are in an airport where all the bagrooms are in a line just across from the bag claim belts... and have the airline names on the doors.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 180):
I know quite a few rampers who share my same opinion of SkyWest, I'm not alone in my opinion.

I just have one question about this... You say you have a lot of respect for SkyWest... which I understand. But, presumably, you've only worked with them at one or two stations. Your level of experience with other contractors, who you bash as a group, would likely be similar, one or two stations. SkyWest is a good company overall, but they pay roughly the same as every other contractor out there. They bid on the same jobs. Why split them off from the same hate you throw at everyone else? Is it because you've actually spent a long time working alongside them and think of them as people while the rest of us are just faceless organizations out for your job? Because, believe it or not, if you worked beside the people I do every day, I think you'd have the same respect for DGS that you seem to hold for SkyWest.

And I'm pretty sure every agent working for ANY contractor who's not just working it as a short term or second job would rather see insourcing than outsourcing. It would mean more money and better benefits for them. Yes, for them, because if airlines insourced the majority of their work they'd have to hire in off the street to fill positions and even United could see the value in hiring someone already at least partially trained in the job over someone who's never done the job at all.

Personally, for me, with hourly rate of pay not being the key factor, working where I do has certain advantages, for the time being. I'd not chased after local mainline jobs for reasons such as schedule or job field preference, but I would jump at a mainline job in the city I want to move to, because then schedule would be less of a concern in my situation and money and benefits would raise significantly higher on the list of priorities.

And no, I wouldn't shed any tears if that job were going to displace a contracted worker, but I would wish him well.

And before you lambaste me again for stealing jobs, the job I work has been outsourced for over a decade. You'll want to go yell at the guy who took it then... along with Al Qaeda and whomever was running UA in 2002.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:03 am

Sorry profile updated . I've been on this site since 2001 so never changed my age

But 10 bucks an hour does not work when you are older; in any USA city without '"mooching" off others to provide the basics of life . And it is just wrong for companies like UA to do this to people
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:25 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 54):
I'm not. DL at ANC is mainline staff above wing, DGS below, who also handles UA/CO below wing.

Mainline above and below. Cargo is a vendor.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 119):
but its the lack of health care and 401K match that really (and profit sharing) makes them cost effective.

They are eligible for profit sharing from day 1.
What gets measured gets done.
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:33 pm

O.k. so, I was harsh last post. Let's see if I can give you all a useful plan so that something other than just anger comes from this.

So, like Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof, here's my dream:

It starts on a Sunday, and continues every other day for two weeks. Nobody knows who paid for them, IAM? United mainline workers about to be outsourced? or a collection of mainline workers mysteriously contributing through GoFundMe... noone can track it.

It's a two page ad spread. On the left hand side, in decent sized print is a list, three full columns, some 100 names, of the United execs with huge compensation and salary packages and their compensation for the last year, and 2012. It's generally getting comments like, "That's obscene!" "I don't make even a hundredth of that," and the like. Below a line in the box that contains the text is a paragraph that explains the outsourcing the above list has embarked on for the last 8 years, and the current threat to the 28 stations. Then a line, and a new list. This list shows the average, highest and lowest annual wages for each of the 28 stations, it reads something like:
Atlanta
Mary C $61,000 2013 Gate Agent and Single mother
Bob T $54,000 2013 Station Manager and Grandfather
Susan G $20,000 2013 Part-time Baggage Handler and student.

In bold print at the bottom, it asks, "Should the people in the bottom box make only $9/hr so that the people in the top box can keep their large salaries? Your airfares won't change. This is United - Outsourcing Friendly."

On the opposing page, the box gets clearer about what's happening, listing out the full number of employees in each of the 28 stations, and clarifying the true number of actual jobs available for transfer to "insourcing" stations. It reveals how little of a match there really is. It tells the story of Denver and Simplicity.

And it ends with it's bottom third titled largely, "What can you do?"
Easy, its clear to us that only money speaks to the people running our airline. So, for the next few months, when your plans call for travel, remember this, and if United is within a few dollars and a few hours of Delta, American or Southwest, we'd encourage you to fly with our competitors. They all treat their employees with respect. And when you've booked that ticket, take a quick moment to email, tweet, or comment to our masters letting them know. We suggest:
Flying American from Houston to DC for $548 this week, because they are Employee Friendly! Get it together United.

We hope we'll still be here when you fly next and that we'll see you at our counters another time. Thank you for supporting us.

If you believe in us, in middle wage jobs, in stopping the rampant outsourcing of professionals to lowest bidders to save a dime and abolish good customer service, cut out these two pages and post them in your workplace, in the breakroom, on your cube, in your locker rooms and washrooms. We truly appreciate your support!


These are the ads. They ran in all 28 cities, every United hub, and every major business market. They hit the media like a firestorm. And they changed the national discussion. From talk of high airfares, it became a discussion of professionalism, customer service, and reasonable compensation. It folded into the national presidential campaign, it hit on themes of family and work, hunger, foodstamps, and housing. It re-energized debates on healthcare. And it stopped the out-sourcing cold. United revenues tanked. Planes flew empty. The FA contract got folded into the war on current management and things got very ugly. And the Board finally relented and the 100 names resigned in shame, or agreed to much lower pay to get their names out of the paper. Historians would later record this as a sign of New Labor.
 
style
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 144):
These are good paying middle class jobs. They can easily make 60K with some bonuses and OT thrown in. Granted i know that is beneath some people, but for a lot of people that is a decent paying job, plus medical and dental and good vacation it is pretty good for a lot of people.
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 157):
Let me tell you the attitudes of contractors at my airports. Ever since this announcement, the contractors mock us, yell at us, tell us how they can't wait to be working our flights. I have no sympathy for the contract agents who will be out of a job due to the insourcing. Because most of you contractors have no sympathy for the thousands of us losing our jobs.

Contractors deserve very little respect from us. Especially when the contractors have submitted 28 undercutting bids to be realized this year. 28 stations closed because people will take jobs for $8-11 an hour
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 157):

I have no sympathy for us insourcing work and kicking contractors out where we can. Because we are getting booted elsewhere. We will take the jobs we can take. The contractors in those stations can maybe transfer to an outsourced city for an $8 an hour job if they are that upset.
Quoting United_fan (Reply 158):
I still cannot fathom that someone would be willing to do a ramp job for $9 an hour . Not with the stree,noise,heat/cold ,lifting involved . No thanks. There are way easier inside jobs available.
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 154):
The company Unions would vilify such "scum" for being allowed to wear the uniform of a good wholesome IAM employee who would never stoop to such a sub-human level of being a contractor...
Quoting maxamuus (Reply 168):

I guess you are happy and have accepted your fate as cheap labor. You can shout it from the rood tops all you want, but at the end of the day you are being paid half what a mainline worker makes, your benefits are shit compared to that mainline workers.


Yes you took his job and you might feel great about it, but just like in DEN, the mainline company will outsource you once you earn too much too and you will be serving fries in the terminal wondering how this could happen to you
Quoting COSPN (Reply 174):
Well please thank your parents or Girlfriend for helping pay your living situation so you can work for a multi billion dollar company. I feel sad what is happening to the younger generations
Quoting northwestair (Reply 175):
I look at all contractors that took away Union Mainline jobs as Scabs and if the Contractors are Union then it's a shame that they would even do this to fellow Union Brothers and Sisters.


Guys, is this what we have come to? Bashing one another over union / outsourced non-union jobs? I am not a fan of outsourcing by any means but some of these comments are off the deep end.

How can anyone criticize another human being for taking a job to support his or her family? Some of you are personally putting blame on the individual and not the greed of the corportation in question.

Shame on UA for going to the lowest bidder and shame on the bidder for paying scrap wages just to win a contract. Unfortunately these are some of the "laws" of capitalism at play. If there is a company willing to pay the lowest rate, will there be someone willing to do it? Supply and demand.

Like some posted above, these days it seems that UA will trip over a dollar to save a penny...

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