MSP Airport Gets Ready For Sun Country Shut Down

ridgid727 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:46 pm

Seems the MSP airport is taking precautionary steps in the event Sun Country Checks Out for good.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...ares-for-sun-country-shutdown.html

KarlB737 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:27 pm

On a related side note there is also this report from May 14th but still relevant in this matter:

Courtesy: KSTP-TV - Video Report Available At Link

Expansion At MSP Airport Depends On Sun Country's Future

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s3796855.shtml

Courtesy: WCCO-TV - Video Report Available At Link

Negotiations Between Sun Country, Pilots Stalled Without Agreement

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/0...-pilots-stalled-without-agreement/

[Edited 2015-06-03 09:34:33]

nwcoflyer · Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:54 pm

Hopefully this is all posturing. I had the pleasure of non-reving on SY last weekend and found everyone from the FA's to the pilots to th staff in MSP to be very friendly and professional. I was quite surprised how nice everyone was and how efficiently they appeared to operate considering a potential shut down.

flyiguy · Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 2):
Hopefully this is all posturing. I had the pleasure of non-reving on SY last weekend and found everyone from the FA's to the pilots to th staff in MSP to be very friendly and professional. I was quite surprised how nice everyone was and how efficiently they appeared to operate considering a potential shut down.

Shut it down, WN buys up all the assets and gives the Pilots and FA's jobs at WN. Problem solved!

FLY

CXA330300 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:04 pm

I've heard good things about SY but they don't seem to be in that great shape. I don't think MSP will be that affected either way - Spiritless

, Frontier or Southwest will gladly take over some of the slack. Hello B6?

slcdeltarumd11 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:09 pm

I bet we see Frontier fly in fast if this happens. This would be a huge opening for a ULCC to roll in. I still think its a fake threat by management, and the pilots are just calling their bluff

nwcoflyer · Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):

I doubt WN would have any interest. Too much effort to integrate for no reason. The only reason they went after FL is because they wanted to eliminate a competitor. I hope for the sake of the SY employees everything works out. Hard to imagine they aren't making money in a low cost fuel enviornment, even with the formidable and stiff DL competition

AA737-823 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:30 pm

I really hope they can turn it around, but I suspect it's too late. Both sides are dug in as firm as they can be, it seems.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 5):
I still think its a fake threat by management, and the pilots are just calling their bluff

Labor chants this very mantra, every time, even after they're waiting for their unemployment checks.

michman · Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 6):
I doubt WN would have any interest. Too much effort to integrate for no reason. The only reason they went after FL is because they wanted to eliminate a competitor. I hope for the sake of the SY employees everything works out. Hard to imagine they aren't making money in a low cost fuel enviornment, even with the formidable and stiff DL competition

Just because they are making money now does not mean they would continue making money at the rates the pilot are demanding. Or the return rate would be so meager that they could get a better return elsewhere. I think it's safe to assume that SY has run the numbers and they don't look very good. It's also a pretty big risk to assume that fuel prices will stay as the current levels for the long term. The pilots realize they are in high demand and can likely easily get a better paying job elsewhere (albeit it will likely take a number of years for those who are topped out in seniority), so I guess I understand their position. But I also understand that it may be very difficult for SY to generate the margins on their fares to allow them to pay the pilots what they want.

wnflyguy · Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):

IF SUN COUNTRY shuts down WN will probably only be interested in Assets not a merger.

Rumors mill from WN sources is WN is ready to INTERVIEW ONLYALL of SY pilots,Flight Attendants and interview ground staffing with relocation offers to major WN hubs which they are currently staffing up at MDW,BWI and DEN.

Rumor also is WN is looking at picking up 9 aircraft 2 new SKY interior 800's and 7 700's from SY leasing company's and taking over SY 800's delivery slots from Boeing. And 1 NG 737 SIM from SY.

Lastly rumored JFK slots, TC space and one gate.

United and Alaska is also heavily rumored to be looking into all the assets of SY.

Flyguy

[Edited 2015-06-03 11:10:42]

commavia · Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:10 pm

Closer to home, I also wonder what the impact of a potential Sun Country shutdown would be at my home airport (DFW). Sun Country is a fairly large operator - both scheduled and charter - at DFW, with substantial capacity, particularly seasonally, to Mexican and Caribbean beach resort destinations. It seems like, in Sun Country's absence, the market could likely absorb much of the latent demand through additional flights by a combination of AA, Spirit and possibly other low-fare carriers. (In particularly, I wonder if AA would perhaps consider putting a Saturday 738, probably seasonally, on DFW-PUJ - a route Sun Country flies today.)

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):
Shut it down, WN buys up all the assets and gives the Pilots and FA's jobs at WN.

What would Southwest need or want to "buy" from Sun Country? They can assume leases and just add more flights into MSP - seems like a big opportunity if Sun Country does, in fact, go out of business.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 9):
United and Alaska is also heavily rumored to be looking into all the assets of SY.

If by "all the assets," that means assuming the aircraft leases - I suppose that's plausible in United's case given the recent move towards acquiring second-hand mainline jets. In Alaska's case, I guess it's at least conceivable that Alaska could attempt to use MSP as a launching-off point for greater expansion outside the western U.S., although I find it pretty hard to realistically imagine.

wnflyguy · Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:15 pm

Another new rumor is the share holders of the New Eastern airlines are actively looking into all the assets including staffing of SY.

Flyguy

enilria · Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 2):

One airline pays most of the bills at MSP. It is not in their interest to have more gates available to the LCCs or even more unused gates anywhere. I'm sure that is a partial factor in this because two things are unusual: 1) airports never move this fast over labor negotiation trash talk and 2) whether SY continues or not their demand will likely be soaked up by other LCCs.

usflyer msp · Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting Enilria (Reply 12):
One airline pays most of the bills at MSP. It is not in their interest to have more gates available to the LCCs or even more unused gates anywhere.

That is not true. Delta has actually been trying to get out of some gate leases at MSP. DL currently has 95 gates, which is overkill for a 450 flight hub.

Cactus739 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:40 pm

So how big is Sun Country? How many planes.... flights etc?

lpdal · Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:03 pm

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 14):
So how big is Sun Country? How many planes.... flights etc?

21 Active frames=

7 737-700s +
14 737-800s

31 destinations as of this post.

-LPDAL

usflyguy · Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):
gives the Pilots and FA's jobs at WN. Problem solved!

Preferential interviews, maybe. But they won't be giving them jobs... it would be more like the ATA situation in which WN bought the certificate in bankruptcy.

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
They can assume leases and just add more flights into MSP - seems like a big opportunity if Sun Country does, in fact, go out of business.

Sun Country's business is purely based on leisure traffic and the airline is pretty much setup to support their vacation packages and resort packages... Sun Country doesn't even really have any assets since everything is leased. How many of the employees are actually SY employees vs contract?

93Sierra · Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:25 pm

They have quite a large operation doing charters into Laughlin

INFINITI329 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
What would Southwest need or want to "buy" from Sun Country? They can assume leases and just add more flights into MSP - seems like a big opportunity if Sun Country does, in fact, go out of business.

Let WN vs DL battle rage on!!

KELPkid · Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 16):
it would be more like the ATA situation in which WN bought the certificate in bankruptcy.

Unfortunately, WN didn't buy ATA's certificate. They should have, it would have helped them when they tried to go international. They could have picked up a sweet, compatible reservation and ticketing system for international ops. Could have hit the ground running with ETOPS, also

815Oceanic · Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:52 pm

Lets hope UA picks up those 737s! But first, let's hope Sun Country survives!

treebeard787 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:55 pm

I hope that they will be able to figure out something to keep them operating. I just flew SY PHX-MSP-PHX last weekend and received excellent service on both flights. It would really be a shame to see SY go away.

I wish all of the employees at SY the best of luck, if they do end up shutting down for good.

enilria · Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 13):

That doesn't make it untrue. In fact it gives them even more reason to be anti-construction of more gates.

raddek · Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:40 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 9):
United and Alaska is also heavily rumored to be looking into all the assets of SY

Wow, I didn't think of UA showing any interest. AS, yes because they can open up a new focus city in MSP with that
many frames if they can get them. Also they could expand elsewhere.

I think that WN has the most to gain from it all as they are almost desperately looking for as many 2nd hand 737's
as they can get for future growth and expansion.

eastern747 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:44 pm

The new Eastern should stay miles way from Sun Country. The people currently working are for the most part good folks trying to work out a good living. The problem is the blood suckers in the cockpit. Let's start hiring other nationals. I'm sick and tired of these jerks bringing down another airline. They don't deserve those obsecne salaries.

SPREE34 · Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):
and gives the Pilots and FA's jobs at WN. Problem solved!

You haven't been paying attention to how Southwest deals with "others" coming onboard.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 9):
F SUN COUNTRY shuts down WN will probably only be interested in Assets not a merger.

That ^^^^^^^ right there. Any crew would start at the bottom of the seniority list as a new hire.

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 24):
The problem is the blood suckers in the cockpit. Let's start hiring other nationals. I'm sick and tired of these jerks bringing down another airline.

Blood suckers in the cockpit? They are the LOWEST paid 737 pilots in the industry. I'm tired of airline pilots rolling over and taking it because they have to. I'm sick of pro-business, make as much money as you can, but screw labor types such as yourself being the reason this country is the shape it is.

-DiamondFlyer

dc10lover · Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:23 pm

It always makes me sad if an airline shuts down or is bought by another and their name is history. Western Airlines comes to mind.

bourbon · Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 26):

Just how much money does a 737 pilot deserve a year?

DiamondFlyer · Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting bourbon (Reply 28):
Just how much money does a 737 pilot deserve a year?

Whatever they are able to negotiate for. And if they can't negotiate for a rate they want to fly at, they are entitled to strike. Asking for industry standard pay seems very reasonable to me.

-DiamondFlyer

N1120A · Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting bourbon (Reply 28):
Just how much money does a 737 pilot deserve a year?

More than they earn at Sun Country.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 26):
I'm sick of pro-business, make as much money as you can, but screw labor types such as yourself being the reason this country is the shape it is.

Yup, especially considering we have a consumer economy.

Moose135 · Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting bourbon (Reply 28):
Just how much money does a 737 pilot deserve a year?

Just how much does an airline CEO deserve a year?

ericm2031 · Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting raddek (Reply 23):
Wow, I didn't think of UA showing any interest. AS, yes because they can open up a new focus city in MSP with that
many frames if they can get them. Also they could expand elsewhere.

DL and AS fighting over 2 (3 if you count LAX) hubs? That would be a bloodbath.

BravoOne · Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:01 pm

Let DAL pick up the pieces and move on..

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting MSP" class="quote" target="_blank">USFlyer MSP (Reply 13):
That is not true. Delta has actually been trying to get out of some gate leases at MSP. DL currently has 95 gates, which is overkill for a 450 flight hub

Are they trying to get out of A/B concourse RJ gates that are pretty much worthless to everyone?

DL just shuttered about 10 gates at the north end of Concourse C in DTW that were turboprop / 50 seat RJ only gates this year.

einsteinboricua · Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 6):
The only reason they went after FL is because they wanted to eliminate a competitor

They did the same with ATA and no doubt they'd do it with SY. Take the planes and terminal space, another airline gone. Employees start fresh with the airline at the bottom if they interview and pass with the airline.

HPRamper · Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 33):
Let DAL pick up the pieces and move on..

The last thing MSP needs is for DL to swallow up even more market share. SY has a very, very strong following in the Cities because they offer a homegrown, affordable alternative to fare-gouging DL.

compensateme · Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 35):
They did the same with ATA and no doubt they'd do it with SY. Take the planes and terminal space, another airline gone. Employees start fresh with the airline at the bottom if they interview and pass with the airline.

WN did not acquire TZ; TZ went bust and WN acquired specific assets (gates at MDW, slots at LGA/DCA, etc.)

I'm uncertain as to why WN or any other traditional airline would desire SY, anyway. SY is primarily a leisure-orientated airline specializing in sun destinations on behalf of various tour operators - a highly specialized product. I'd be significantly cheaper for other airlines to wait for SY to cease operation & expand their offerings at MSP than it would be to acquire the entire company, which wouldn't fit with theirs anyway.

einsteinboricua · Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting compensateme (Reply 37):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 35):
They did the same with ATA and no doubt they'd do it with SY. Take the planes and terminal space, another airline gone. Employees start fresh with the airline at the bottom if they interview and pass with the airline.

WN did not acquire TZ; TZ went bust and WN acquired specific assets (gates at MDW, slots at LGA/DCA, etc.)

I meant in the context of eliminating a competitor. Regardless of whether TZ was ever a serious WN competitor, one less airline means more passengers for the taking (hence, another competitor eliminated with some precious assets incorporated).

compensateme · Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 38):

I meant in the context of eliminating a competitor. Regardless of whether TZ was ever a serious WN competitor, one less airline means more passengers for the taking (hence, another competitor eliminated with some precious assets incorporated).

But WN didn't eliminate TZ. FL was the only other airline interested in TZ's assets but WN acquired FL anyway. Had FL acquired TZ's assets, it wouldn't have made a lick of a difference since the DOJ considered the Chicago market as a whole.

KarlB737 · Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:36 pm

Courtesy: Twin-Cities.com

MSP Officials Ponder Life Without Sun Country Airlines

"At a meeting of the Metropolitan Airports Commission's planning committee Monday, officials forecast that without Sun Country, airfares would increase in a market dominated by Delta Air Lines. That would make it too expensive for an estimated 230,000 local passengers a year to fly, an official said."

http://www.twincities.com/business/c...-life-without-sun-country-airlines

azjubilee · Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 24):
The new Eastern should stay miles way from Sun Country. The people currently working are for the most part good folks trying to work out a good living. The problem is the blood suckers in the cockpit. Let's start hiring other nationals. I'm sick and tired of these jerks bringing down another airline. They don't deserve those obsecne salaries.

Frank Lorenzo... is that you?

nws2002 · Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 40):
MSP Officials Ponder Life Without Sun Country Airlines

"At a meeting of the Metropolitan Airports Commission's planning committee Monday, officials forecast that without Sun Country, airfares would increase in a market dominated by Delta Air Lines. That would make it too expensive for an estimated 230,000 local passengers a year to fly, an official said."

Surely someone (G4, NK, or F9) would try to fill in the gap, at least a bit. All three ULCC seem to be growing at locations where fares are high (like CVG) and coming in to pickup the price sensitive passengers who will not fly unless the price is cheap.

MIflyer12 · Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 36):
The last thing MSP needs is for DL to swallow up even more market share. SY has a very, very strong following in the Cities because they offer a homegrown, affordable alternative to fare-gouging DL.

BTS puts their share at less than 3.34%, obviously, so it's a very very strong following that doesn't actually bother to buy tickets and travel.

silentbob · Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 29):
And if they can't negotiate for a rate they want to fly at, they are entitled to strike.

Only if the government allows them to do so and that rarely happens.

bobnwa · Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 36):
because they offer a homegrown, affordable alternative to fare-gouging DL.

In your opinion, does Delta fare gouge more in MSP than UA, AA charge do at their hubs? What ever your answer can you supply number s to back it up?

ridgid727 · Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:09 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 45):
In your opinion, does Delta fare gouge more in MSP than UA, AA charge do at their hubs? What ever your answer can you supply number s to back it up?

While Im not sure where he got his data, there was an article last year in the WSJ about highest airfares in the country. CVG took the honors. Here is the article to compare. Keep in mind this was last year. It appears that MSP is around the middle of the 75 most expensive cities.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...4052702303980004579576012567760336

[Edited 2015-06-04 13:11:26]

HPRamper · Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 43):
BTS puts their share at less than 3.34%, obviously, so it's a very very strong following that doesn't actually bother to buy tickets and travel.

Because an airline with 21 total frames is going to have a larger piece of the pie

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 45):
In your opinion, does Delta fare gouge more in MSP than UA, AA charge do at their hubs? What ever your answer can you supply number s to back it up?

Not really nor would I claim that. Although there are reports out there that UA is the worst, basically all carriers gouge at a fortress, even Southwest. That's how they can subsidize the weaker parts of the network. The market pays for the convenience of the nonstop, and a strong business base will drive fares up further.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 46):
While Im not sure where he got his data, there was an article last year in the WSJ about highest airfares in the country. CVG took the honors. Here is the article to compare. Keep in mind this was last year. It appears that MSP is around the middle of the 75 most expensive cities.

I was really only speaking of DL in particular. Other carriers in their niches in fortress hubs are nearly always cheaper to fly. The hub carrier charges more for the nonstop. In the years I lived in Minneapolis, I flew DL maybe once, because their fares were so much higher than other airlines. And I'll gladly connect to save a couple hundred dollars. CVG is so expensive because that is what happens when your legacy hub carrier is really the only show in town and there is certainly an extreme minimum of LCC presence even compared with other fortress hubs that usually have at least a token presence.

Sadly SY is one of the factors that kept overall pricing more manageable at MSP. Without them...

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 40):
"At a meeting of the Metropolitan Airports Commission's planning committee Monday, officials forecast that without Sun Country, airfares would increase in a market dominated by Delta Air Lines. That would make it too expensive for an estimated 230,000 local passengers a year to fly, an official said."

*cough cough*

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