Al Baker's KMIA Accident Theory

mmo · Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:26 pm

Well, we have the accident report, as authored by QR's CEO Al Baker. Interesting comments and he points the blame to ATC (Tower). I am sure glad he's on the case!!!

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...traffic-control-in-miami-c-419912/

[Edited 2015-12-10 10:14:32]

[Edited 2015-12-10 10:16:59]

LHUSA · Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:41 pm

If it's the controller's fault, then why did QR fire two of the pilots (as reported).

Mir · Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:47 pm

I like how the article is written as if to say "we can't technically say that the guy is full of crap...but the guy is full of crap."

“Such kind of incidents happen quite often, either it is a tail strike on the runway or it is contact with the landing lights,” says Al Baker. “It is nothing out of context.”

Happens often, does it? Okay, sure. Whatever you say.

-Mir

KarelXWB · Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:48 pm

He also downplayed the incident:

Quote:
“Such kinds of incidents happen quite often,” says @qatarairways CEO Akbar Al Baker on the Miami 777 incident.

Via http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/674629846799093760

[Edited 2015-12-10 09:48:37]

pvjin · Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:53 pm

Another reason to never fly on QR apart from the serious human rights issues of the host country, an attitude like that doesn't give me much confidence in their safety culture.

B8887 · Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting MMO (Thread starter):
I am sure glad he's on the case!!!.

Well, a further few meters down the runway, we would have had a team of Crime Scene Investigators working on a smoking carcass on a case of 300ish involuntary manslaughters.

Regards.

B8887

seabosdca · Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:29 pm

Wow. This definitely makes me think twice about flying QR, and I'm usually the one defending the airline when other people say things like that.

At least Emirates took their A340-500 departure incident seriously.

N14AZ · Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:34 pm

@ Seabosdca: fully agree.

So finally he made his "historic" comment: the most stupid comment ever made by a CEO.

slvrblt · Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 10):
Well, a further few meters down the runway, we would have had a team of Crime Scene Investigators working on a smoking carcass on a case of 300ish involuntary manslaughters.

Regards. B8887

Worse than that, actually. The aircraft's direction of takeoff took it directly over the employee parking lot. If he had belly-flopped, it would have taken out hundreds of cars, whoever might have been in/around them, and who knows, even anyone on LeJeune Road at that time of night, depending on it's forward momentum. Really scary when I think how close it came to that. He couldn't have cleared the parking lot by very much.

I've seen the fully-laden freighter 747's use that runway late at night; they often will use the whole runway and still just clear the parking lot at under 1000 feet. Quite a spectacle, and very loud. I'm still amazed that triple-7 made it out.

mmo · Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 14):
I dont know why people use ICAO code, its not that MIA is different to KMIA that it couldnt have been used, who even knows or cares about ICAO stuff.

After being in military and commercial, on the ops side, for over 40 years, the ICAO codes are what are used. Try filing a flight plan with something other than the ICAO code! Sorry, but after 40 years, I'd suggest you change!

lancelot07 · Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
Another reason to never fly on QR apart from the serious human rights issues of the host country, an attitude like that doesn't give me much confidence in their safety culture.

This is the sensible thing to do, because:

“Such kind of incidents happen quite often, either it is a tail strike on the runway or it is contact with the landing lights,” says Al Baker.

VijayJ · Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting slvrblt (Reply 16):
I've seen the fully-laden freighter 747's use that runway late at night; they often will use the whole runway and still just clear the parking lot at under 1000 feet. Quite a spectacle, and very loud. I'm still amazed that triple-7 made it out.

I've spent a lovely evening at the Embassy Suites watching those big birds, passenger and freighters, take off on that runway.

TC957 · Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:44 pm

So AAB is publicly saying it wasn't the crew's fault but of course he fired them as soon as they filled in their report back in Doha. QR's way of doing things I suppose.

hivue · Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:46 pm

CEOs get ripped a new one in the US by the media for not bending over backwards to take public responsibility when things go wrong. The Chipotle co-CEO is having to do all sorts of mea culpas right now. It'll be interesting to see if anyone (besides a.netters) calls Al Baker out on this.

LSZH34 · Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:48 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):

Truer words have never been spoken

aa777lvr · Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:34 am

I'm surprised his accident theory didn't somehow involve Richard Anderson or DL. Geeeshhhh!

zkojq · Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:09 am

Quote:
“Such kind of incidents happen quite often, either it is a tail strike on the runway or it is contact with the landing lights,” says Al Baker

Oh well that's ok then...nothing to see here.

What an idiot Akbar is. Makes his airline look like a joke. Between this and the 'historic announcement for american aviation', which was just the announcement of a new slogan for his airline, I hope that the press stops taking him seriously and stops giving him airtime.

Happily, Tim Clark and James Hogan both do their airlines proud and are generally looked up to by staff.

b747400erf · Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:28 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 27):
CEOs get ripped a new one in the US by the media for not bending over backwards to take public responsibility when things go wrong. The Chipotle co-CEO is having to do all sorts of mea culpas right now. It'll be interesting to see if anyone (besides a.netters) calls Al Baker out on this.

No one got hurt in the QR incident so the media can't make it a big story their readers don't care. "If it bleeds it leads"

mmo · Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:11 pm

Thank you to whomever fixed the designator in the thread title.

Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
Would YOU fly QR given Al Baker's comments, either as a pilot or a passenger?

I no longer work for them.....how's that for an answer?

rbavfan · Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting slvrblt (Reply 14):
and who knows, even anyone on LeJeune Road at that time of night,

Be nice if you could say 953 vs LeJeune road as map programs show it as the number not the name. Had to do a search on maps to find the roads name & that was on the name of a hotel on the street not showing the name on the road.
Remember most of us don't live in Miami.

MD80Nut · Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:50 pm

Baker should thank God most people have no idea it happened or how close this "incident" came to being a major aviation disaster with hundreds of deaths. As a South Florida resident I shudder when I think of a fully loaded 77W belly flopping on to the parking lot and Le Jeune Road.

Better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you could be a fool than to open it and remove doubt, Al, baby...

Cheers, Ralph

D L X · Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting MMO (Reply 45):
I no longer work for them.....how's that for an answer?

Fair enough.

D L X · Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:23 am

Wow. 30 messages removed from this thread.

Here's what I had posted earlier, regarding Al Baker's downplaying the accident:

You and I and everyone else here knows this was maybe a foot or two away from being 300 crispy people, and good luck meeting good engineering from being 300 drowned people _somewhere_ in the Atlantic. It's damn bloody serious! I want to hear someone say it's so. Without that, I will not fly them. I am very greatly concerned about safety culture when it "these things happen" comes down from the very top.

Siren · Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:59 am

Quote:
“At no time was the aircraft or the passengers put in any harms way.” - Al Baker

I beg to differ. The plane flew to Doha with a 42cm tear in the pressurized section of the fuselage! It's a testament perhaps to the strength of the airframe and the safety of modern planes that the cabin pressurization system was able to handle a hole in plane that big, but these guys managed to cause roughly a million dollars worth of damage to that plane.

This sort of attitude from the top shows a completely lackadaisical safety culture at the top levels of the company. A far more appropriate response should have been something along the lines of: "This was an extremely serious incident, and we worked with the relevant authorities to investigate and determine the causes. We have implemented changes in training and procedure to ensure that such an incident does not happen again."

PlaneHunter · Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:56 am

These comments not only say a lot about this CEO, but also about the whole company and its practices. QR had already been on my no-fly list before due a number of reasons - with safety now being added as yet another one. I wouldn't even fly QR again if they offered free First Class tickets.

PH

AirlineCritic · Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:07 am

I think the official report needs to scold this kind of belittlement of a safety issue, by top management of the company in question.

TheRedBaron · Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:14 pm

The accident or issue or whatever they want to call this "event" is pretty bad as it was, and the crew was fired AFAIK.

End of Story.

Then comes AAB and reopens the wound saying its no big deal... holy cow, I bet he really needs a good PR course, and then they reject the A320Neo, so what it is, Safety, carpets, being on the spot light, or simply stupidity?

OMG.

TRB

speedbird128 · Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 26):
End of Story.

Having been involved in safety case studies and incident/accident investigation I am not of this opinion. It isn't something that should be blabbered about like it's something as common as refuelling your plane.

No disrespect TRB, but when the CEO comes out in public and says that "it's no big deal" then there is a bigger problem, when as mentioned he has such a pedancy for carepets to line up and soforth. He should have just kept his big stupid mouth shut rather than trying to play it down as a non-event.

And then there is the no-strings-attached method of firing crew. Whether this actually happend, and whether or not a proper investigation as to *why* it happened was done or not - so lessons can be learned instead of using employees as a scapegoat - we will likely never know as that is the way of their attitude to transparency. It wouldn't surprise me if they were fired, I worked in the region and know it happens.

TheRedBaron · Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:21 am

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 27):
No disrespect TRB, but when the CEO comes out in public and says that "it's no big deal" then there is a bigger problem, when as mentioned he has such a pedancy for carepets to line up and soforth. He should have just kept his big stupid mouth shut rather than trying to play it down as a non-event.

Perhaps I had to use more verbose response but I agree with your points. The attitude of "nothing to see here move along" is irresponsible in the light of the damage to the aircraft and the sheer luck those guys had to downplay its true dimension.

Firing the crew is like putting the dust under the carpet... solves nothing and eventually you will have to clean up!

Best Regards

TRB

jacobin777 · Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 23):
This sort of attitude from the top shows a completely lackadaisical safety culture at the top levels of the company.

I highly doubt he's in charge of any particular plane flying. Obviously the pilots/tech-ops/dispatch people are in charge of that.

I agree it wasn't the most brilliant comment by AB but I wouldn't take too much stock in terms of safety, etc.

Brewfangrb · Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:18 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 23):
I beg to differ. The plane flew to Doha with a 42cm tear in the pressurized section of the fuselage!

Jesus. I had no idea it was that bad. I just thought they damaged the light standards and banged up (scratched/dented) the fuselage.

This is ridiculous and scary, frankly. I can see how, with 1000 fewer meters of runway, this had to be very close to a crash.

migair54 · Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:04 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 30):
This is ridiculous and scary, frankly. I can see how, with 1000 fewer meters of runway, this had to be very close to a crash.

The crew reduce the engine power and select full runway, it's a normal procedure to save engine life, but when they took off from intersection they left behind a lot of Runway and now the new power setting was lower and not enough to reach safe speeds as planned.

Any safety issue is a serious issue, saying it's not a big deal is a very stupid comment, saying that can be understood as if QR does not take safety seriously, they were extremely close to crash the plane during the most dangerous phase of the flight, no need to say that in case of RTO they'd have gone out by far.

What happened to the crew?? Are they flying again?? Fired?? Why 2 only?? The ones in the controls.

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 1):
If it's the controller's fault, then why did QR fire two of the pilots (as reported).

Any safety issue with the plane is 100% responsability of the crew, specially PIC, the controller can be wrong, Marshaller can be wrong, anyone out of the cockpit can give you a wrong lead, but the crew should understand the situation and decide accordingly with safety as number one priority. If they were not sure, stop the plane, discuss, seek for answers until you're 100%clear then decide and share the information. Its something we do daily and using all the resources available. Basic CRM.

DL_Mech · Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 31):
If they were not sure, stop the plane, discuss, seek for answers until you're 100%clear then decide and share the information. Its something we do daily and using all the resources available. Basic CRM.

Does QR have a CRM program?

MIADeparture · Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:23 pm

That 777 was so low, we heard QR owes Sunpass $3.50 on Toll-By-Plate.

Miami · Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:28 pm

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 33):
That 777 was so low, we heard QR owes Sunpass $3.50 on Toll-By-Plate.

TheRedBaron · Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 33):
That 777 was so low, we heard QR owes Sunpass $3.50 on Toll-By-Plate.

Best comment ... so funny even if the situation was really scary.

TRB

speedbird128 · Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:57 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 31):
Basic CRM.

That is exactly my point. Instead of (apparently) firing the crew - perhaps some intraspection, like CRM failure for instance, should take place.

But that would imply that there is something wrong within the airline and at no cost could something like that be acknowledged. Not Ali, nor much of the region's, modus operandi.

migair54 · Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:50 am

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 32):
Does QR have a CRM program?

It is mandatory, I think every 2 years if I am not mistaken, like Dangerous goods and Aviations Security.

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 36):
That is exactly my point. Instead of (apparently) firing the crew - perhaps some intraspection, like CRM failure for instance, should take place.

But that would imply that there is something wrong within the airline and at no cost could something like that be acknowledged. Not Ali, nor much of the region's, modus operandi.

It's better to fire the pilots and send the message to all the others. Then AAB says it's not an important issue, it happens all the time. It is very stupid and contradictory.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 33):
That 777 was so low, we heard QR owes Sunpass $3.50 on Toll-By-Plate.

Plus the cost of the light they destroy.

peterinlisbon · Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:38 pm

I agree with him. Qatar Airways pilots are not responsible for checking whether they have enough runway to take off. They can leave that to ATC. In fact, why even bother doing all these complicated weight and balance calculations? Fill the plane up with whatever you like and if ATC says "cleared for takeoff" what could possibly go wrong?

I think that Al Baker did forget another factor though. He forget to mention that Miami's airport fence is obviously too high and that he'll be suing the person that put the barbed wire on top for compensation and a new set of tyres.

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