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KarelXWB
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Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:07 pm

Despite heavy protests from KLM and pilot unions, Dutch ministry approved Emirates to introduce a second daily A380 service to AMS. Starting from February 1, 2016, Emirates is allowed to upgrade the evening flight to A380 equipment (currently operated by 77W metal).

Dutch ministry says KLM should not be worried: a case study showed that a second A380 flight will have little effect on the Dutch aviation market.

Quote:

The Dutch government has now granted permission to operate an additional A380 flight at Amsterdam Schiphol, according to reports.

...

As we have previously reported (see news November 19), the news that Emirates wished to operate a twice daily A380 service at Schiphol did not go down well with both national airline KLM and the Dutch pilots’ union VNV.

But really the opportunities for the Dutch government to intervene and restrict Emirates are limited. Holland favours “open skies” and its aviation treaty with the UAE is a liberal one.

Source
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...wed-extra-a380-flights-at-schiphol

Link to the document:
http://tinyurl.com/jko37tv

[Edited 2015-12-19 09:10:26]
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lesfalls
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Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:25 pm

I wonder how much they paied the Dutch government (my hypothesis).
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KarelXWB
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Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:25 pm

Dutch pilot union VNV is furious after hearing the news:

http://www.haarlemsdagblad.nl/region...r-tweede-A380-Emirates-op-Schiphol

[Edited 2015-12-19 09:28:31]
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KarelXWB
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Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:34 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 1):
I wonder how much they paied the Dutch government (my hypothesis).

It's a free, open market. The document says:

The aviation treaty between the Netherlands and the U.A.E., dating back to 1990, has a liberal character. There are no restrictions on the number of aircraft, number of flights and aircraft types.

So there's really nothing the Dutch ministry can do about it.
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:55 pm

Good for the government of Holland.

This demonetization argument is getting very old and tiring about the ME3.

The best thing is to have open doors, compete on your product and service, and give the consumer choice.

Circling the wagons in knee jerk protectionism is futile and hurts your own people. The future of AFKL and whether it prospers or dies is in the hands of AFKL.

I also find it ironic as EK today is doing exactly what KLM was built upon - 6th freedom transit traffic.
And KLM for bulk of its history was a government owned national carrier, so if it was OK for KLM to be state owned for 60-70 years, how come is it an issue when ME3 have state ownership? After all per ICAO 2/3 of globes airlines still have some form of state participation in their ownership, so its the normal ownership model for most of the industry

Frankly, its probably soon time for a 3rd and 4th frequency for EK at AMS based on the knowledge of how much the Dutch travel to eastward markets.

[Edited 2015-12-19 09:55:59]
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):

The aviation treaty between the Netherlands and the U.A.E., dating back to 1990, has a liberal character. There are no restrictions on the number of aircraft, number of flights and aircraft types.

Wow... EK/UAE was smart setting up so many open bilaterals early. The irony is this was to ensure the European airlines controlled the connecting traffic.

Oh well, it enables other jobs.

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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):

The aviation treaty between the Netherlands and the U.A.E., dating back to 1990, has a liberal character. There are no restrictions on the number of aircraft, number of flights and aircraft types.

Wow... EK/UAE was smart setting up so many open bilaterals early. The irony is this was to ensure the European airlines controlled the connecting traffic.

Oh well, it enables other jobs.

Lightsaber

In the 70's I flew BA (BOAC) LHR-DXB-ISB (Rawalpindi). In the 90's I flew Swiss Air ZRH-DXB-KHI. At the time those aforementioned carriers were taking advantage of the liberal bilaterals but now complain when the competitor has "one-upped" them. Go figure!   
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:16 pm

Given that the UAE-Netherlands has quasi-Open Skies, why did this require government approval in the first place? Or to rephrase, why was it any more than just a rubber stamp exercise. The Durtxh Government would have almost no leg to stand on if they wanted to reject the application.
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):

I was wondering the same. Why does EK need the permission from the Dutch Authorities to change the aircraft if it is already negotiated in the bilateral?
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:24 pm

It will soon be 5 flights a day just like LHR
 
LJ
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Frankly, its probably soon time for a 3rd and 4th frequency for EK at AMS based on the knowledge of how much the Dutch travel to eastward markets.

Or KL will be getting more cosier with EY and ask for a second daily EY to ensure EK won't get too big at AMS.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 10):

Or KL will be getting more cosier with EY and ask for a second daily EY to ensure EK won't get too big at AMS.

Let it be EY instead of EK, or maybe TK or QR continues to grow at AMS even more. Point being its not the Dutch governments place to restrict access and consumer choice.

KL is smart. Let them figure out how to protect their market share on overlapping routes (if that is deemed important to them), instead of crying and desire to hide behind governments protection.
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Despite heavy protests from KLM and pilot unions, Dutch ministry approved Emirates to introduce a second daily A380 service to AMS

This is apositive development for KLM. Increased competition will mean less room for complacency.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11):
KL is smart. Let them figure out how to protect their market share on overlapping routes (if that is deemed important to them), instead of crying and desire to hide behind governments protection.

        
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
Given that the UAE-Netherlands has quasi-Open Skies, why did this require government approval in the first place? Or to rephrase, why was it any more than just a rubber stamp exercise. The Durtxh Government would have almost no leg to stand on if they wanted to reject the application.

It was most likely a rubber stamp excercise. However, the same rubber stamp excercise would most likely require the Dutch government to formally reply to the complaints prior to giving EK the approval (if not the approval could have been contended in the courts). Don't know how it works in other countries, but many Dutch laws hold provisions whereby someone can complain when a license needs to be granted.

[Edited 2015-12-19 13:31:10]
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):

Oh thanks for the info. I got confused by the part where they needed permision so that made me think that there wasn't an open skies agreement.
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 6):
At the time those aforementioned carriers were taking advantage of the liberal bilaterals but now complain when the competitor has "one-upped" them. Go figure!   

That is the irony in this case. I think it is a good thing, let the competition step up and react to this extra capacity EK will bring on with this flight. I believe this A380 will replace a B777 so the step is not that huge, but still it is a step up from and for them.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:59 pm

[quote=EPA001,reply=15]I believe this A380 will replace a B777 so the step is not that huge, but still it is a step up from and for them.


You are right. It's really a step up in terms of product. Nicer premium cabins and more space in economy.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):

It's a free, open market. The document says:

The aviation treaty between the Netherlands and the U.A.E., dating back to 1990, has a liberal character. There are no restrictions on the number of aircraft, number of flights and aircraft types.

So there's really nothing the Dutch ministry can do about it.
Quoting Dubaiamman243 (Reply 8):
I was wondering the same. Why does EK need the permission from the Dutch Authorities to change the aircraft if it is already negotiated in the bilateral?
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
Given that the UAE-Netherlands has quasi-Open Skies, why did this require government approval in the first place? Or to rephrase, why was it any more than just a rubber stamp exercise. The Durtxh Government would have almost no leg to stand on if they wanted to reject the application.

All the above might be true, but it's not always the way things work. Norwegian's application for TATL rights using its Irish Operating Certificate has been buried for 2 years, despite there being no legal basis for doing so.

So, the Dutch authorities are to be commended for actually following the rules and allowing free and fair competition.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:14 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Frankly, its probably soon time for a 3rd and 4th frequency for EK at AMS based on the knowledge of how much the Dutch travel to eastward markets.
Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 9):
It will soon be 5 flights a day just like LHR

4 daily flights AMS-DXB with 388 is still a long way off, but a 3rd daily 388 flight is likely to come in the next 3 years, so that all the conecting banks at DXB will be filled.

Once AMS has got its 3-daily 388s to/from DXB, I think EK will step up BXL-DXB in a similar way.

Loadings of the daily 77W on BRU-DXB are high (and that has sharply impacted yields accordingly), and a 2nd daily flight should be a matter of months on this route. Once that route has its 2-daily 77W flights, then the question as to jumping to a 3rd-daily flight or upgauging part or all of the existing 2-daily flights will arise...
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting Dubaiamman243 (Reply 8):

Although there is a open skies agreement in place, there is an article in this agreement applicable which basically says that when an airline (Emirates) operates flights between the countries, it should be done in such a way that the other airlinen(s) (KLM and others) are taken into account in such a way that these airlines will not be harmed in an unfair manner. This is only applicable for this specific route or part of it.

So that's where the discussion is coming from and why it is not just a stamp.

I don't think it is such a big deal. KLM hasn't commented to much about it as well (it is the pilots union who is screaming). I think it is wise of KLM to let it happen in order to intensify it cooperation with Etihad in a later stage. KLM is is gaining access to a lost market again (India) through their partnership with Etihad/Jet Airways.

Btw, I don't see Etihad expanding in AMS quickly. Their daily flight is still operated by just an A330-200.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:08 pm

Not to be difficult, but I think the complaints from these European carriers are quite well-founded. A lot of the arguments for the ME3 state that the EU airlines need to step up their game and stop complaining, but what those people fail to realize is that even if the airlines do that, they aren't going to keep that traffic because they can't compete on price and they aren't going to be able to do that. The only way to do that is to slash wages and benefits and while that might work in the gulf region, it won't fly in Europe (or the US, to use another example of airlines that are upset). Forget subsidies. It's not a level playing field because of cost structures, and I don't think it's fair to penalize the US and European carriers who arguably take far better care of their employees than the ME3 do.

Ultimately, I don't think that an increase in quality would make any difference because the ME3 can win in a fare war. It isn't a level playing field, and I think that as unpopular as it might be with consumers, protecting carriers in the EU, US, and Canada is a nice gesture given the fact that the costs of being headquartered and operating in those countries is going to be higher.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:14 pm

Wow, that's perfect news. Flying the EK A380 was sooooo much better then any other longhaul carrier I've flown on. KLM shouldn't complain so much, let them instead concentrate on quality of service and seats/meals.
 
TonyBurr
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:17 pm

"and I don't think it's fair to penalize the US and European carriers who arguably take far better care of their employees than the ME3 do"

I agree that the US and European airlines take better care of their employees. The problem is they do not take care of their passengers anything like the ME3 take care of those who pay to fly. Maybe the US and European airlines should improve their product and service. I would not pay more money to fly an inferior product. Now that the airlines have devalued their FF prorgams, it is service, price and product which will drive the market. The US and European airlines better become more aware of this. They did it to themselves.
 
sirloin
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:35 pm

I'm not disputing that a lack of quality is hurting things further, but at the end of the day, price will still trump quality for a sizeable portion of the traveling public, and there's nothing they can do about that.

Consider the desire of a lot of these airlines to set up LCC/leisure-oriented subsidiaries. LH's Jump. AC's Rouge. IAD's Vueling. On a lot of routes, the full-service product can't compete because no matter how nice it might have been, it was no match for the LCC competition because of the cost. Air travel, for whatever reason, isn't like hotels and such where there are significant enough portions of people willing to pay a premium for a better product. If anything, the prevalence of LCCs proves my point. If quality was really that important, airlines like NK, G4, FR, U2, etc. wouldn't even exist. Product quality doesn't matter as much as people like to think it does, even though it should. I know I pay more to get a better product on my flight and even aircraft types I like more, but I know that I'm not your everyday customer in that sense.

Simply put, the airlines are calling the bluff of the public. KL could put the nicest cabin in existence onboard their aircraft and the ME3 will still eat their lunch because they just have to undercut them on price and they'll win. The ME3 are to the legacy long-haul carriers what airlines like FR and U2 are to the short-haul operations of those carriers, although the ME3 have the added bonus of being able to offer a great quality product at lower prices.

I do agree that it's sort of a catch-22 because with competition gone, that also removes the incentive to offer better service, but I just don't think that the people here who fly on the ME3 would suddenly switch back if the American and EU airlines beefed up their offerings. Looking at it from the other side, there's no way that EK is able to fill all those A380s based on product quality. They're filling them because they can operate them at cost levels that American and EU carriers couldn't match without shafting their employees drastically.

[Edited 2015-12-20 08:39:37]
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 22):

I totally agree. Regarding the second part of your comment, the fact that European and American airlines have inferior products compared to ME3 is tru, but also if you compare it to many Asian carriers. On the other hand Lufthansa's goal is to become a 5* airline within a few years and I however am impressed about the experience of the staff of airlines like KLM, BA, LH and former Continental airlines as I recall which are equal or sometimes better than ME3 airlines. Problem is that many of these airlines hard product is very poor. Moreover flying a 757 or 767 tatl is not what you're looking forward to but what many US3 airlines have been using with almost the same product for the last 30 years. From a passenger experience in coach however, nothing beats an A380 windowseat. Welcome to the second EK A380 to AMS.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting sirloin (Reply 20):
It's not a level playing field because of cost structures, and I don't think it's fair to penalize the US and European carriers who arguably take far better care of their employees than the ME3 do.

The world and nations do not operate in isolation.

Just like the clothing industry, auto, IT, etc every industry competes across borders.

Obviously advantage will go to those that can produce a product most efficiently at lowest cost. Its nature of the beast.

But this in no way mean employees are "better taken care of" in the US or Europe however.
Cost of living and local conditions vary widely so the local income will vary greatly also. Its ridiculous to think the airline employee in Korea, Turkey, Chile, Ethiopia, or any other nation needs to be paid an identical wage to a US or European employee, no more than the auto worker, or other worker in these nations needs to match the wages in Europe or US.

A good personal example I have is the VP of major and profitable global airline I am close with. As VP he is paid $10,000/mo. In the US managers get paid that much, let alone a VP. But with $10,000 he is handsomely rewarded and lives like a king as the average income in his nation is $16,000 year.

Ultimately, the airlines in Europe and US as with other industries either learn to compete in a globalized market or die.
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sirloin
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:49 pm

I'm not saying the wages be identical, but I seem to recall plenty of documentation that, for example, flight crews for the ME3 have far more grueling schedules than their US or EU counterparts.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the airline industry seems to suffer a bit more from a price-above-all-else mentality than other industries, and I would contend that the airline industry is very different from a lot of those other examples as it is. Gucci and Burberry aren't competing with the companies who sell their wares at Target, and they don't have to do so. Even if they all sell purses, they're pretty much catering to different markets. The clothing and automotive industries would, in my opinion, be better examples if we were trying to discuss how Y class competes with J class.

Also, as mentioned above (and you agree), airlines based in certain parts of the world are going to yield cost structure advantages. Does that mean that they should be locked out of everywhere that's substantially more expensive? Not necessarily, but I would argue that capacity dumping isn't necessarily the best way to go, especially when your entire business model is essentially stealing connecting traffic at fares your competition can't possibly match without placing all their employees below the poverty line.

Simply put, telling an airline that has to sell a seat at $2000 to have any prayer of making a profit that it has to compete with an airline that can sell that same seat with the same quality for $1500 and make a handsome profit is a bit unfair. It's one thing if that competitor is home-based right next to you and has to fight it out operating under the same rules you do, but when that carrier is located in another part of the world that doesn't have the rules protecting its labor force that you do (to use just one example of cost differentials), I can understand the desire of your home carrier to sort of balance things out. I'm not saying kick the ME3 out of everywhere, but I am saying that imposing some restrictions on them that level things out a bit seems fair. It's not like they're losing everything. It just gives them a different set of challenges that, at least to some degree, evens them out with yours.

I'm not saying I applaud the approach of airlines to ignore the quality of their product and shelter themselves from anything that forces them to improve (I would rather them up their game and the traveling public come to an understanding that quality costs $$$), but I firmly believe that the notion that a quality boost to the product would eliminate their woes is utterly ridiculous. History suggests that isn't really the case in this industry.

[Edited 2015-12-20 09:56:37]
 
Gasman
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:54 pm

Hmmm. KLM should be worried.

For anyone without any particular emotional allegiance to KL, flying EK is a no brainer. Better hard and soft product. Even for someone with an emotional connection to KL like myself, the abysmal food quality in KL (especially in J) would be enough to make even me consider jumping ship.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
This demonetization argument is getting very old and tiring about the ME3.

The best thing is to have open doors, compete on your product and service, and give the consumer choice.

Wile old, QR's rebuttal condemned themselves. Yea... Release numbers *excluding* a few years. Gee.. What happened those years. The strongest of the ME3 is EK and Dubai is too broke to financially help.

Now the fact the European airlines are handicapped by lack of hub growth and curfews... No one else cares! Offer flights when people want to fly or be bypassed.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 9):

It will soon be 5 flights a day just like LHR

How? Why KL horribly overcharges for J, I personally think they are competitive enough to slow growth. IIRC, KL has connections to 72 European cities.

EK is hampered for the next decade by DXB congestion. This is the time for EU3 hub expansion. Certainly with the A321LR coming to fragment TATL.

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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:18 pm

Quoting sirloin (Reply 26):
flight crews for the ME3 have far more grueling schedules than their US or EU counterparts.

Each nation sets their own regulatory guidance within ICAO frame work. Even in the US, the FAA says a pilot can fly 100 hours/month, but due to things like restrictive union contracts a pilot may be far less efficient at 60 hours.

So lets not blame the lack of US or European productivity on other nations or airlines.

Quoting sirloin (Reply 26):

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the airline industry seems to suffer a bit more from a price-above-all-else mentality than other industries, and I would contend that the airline industry is very different from a lot of those other examples as it is.

Airline seat is a commodity. Thankfully, many people can get you from point A to point B.

Consumers by their nature seek out value and pricing certainly is a major component of decision making.

A few might seek the Gucci and Burberry bag, but vast majority is happy with what Target offers.

Quoting sirloin (Reply 26):
Simply put, telling an airline that has to sell a seat at $2000 to have any prayer of making a profit that it has to compete with an airline that can sell that same seat with the same quality for $1500 and make a handsome profit is a bit unfair.

Like any other industry the efficient win, the inefficient die. Does not matter of you produce a widget or selling air transportation.

What would be terribly unfair is for the consumer and everyone else to have to overpay that $2,000 to simply prop up and protect the high cost producer when someone else can offer you the same if not even better product at $1,500. Talk about a waste of money and consumer harm and removal of choice.

Let the market forces work, it spurs innovation, and the chips can fall where they may as in most other global sectors.

Maybe ultimately the time will come when legacy air transport is simply a sector that US and Europe should not be in. Just like many other sectors from ship building, to other manufacturing that we've exited maybe its time to out of the legacy airline game one day.
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LondonCity
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
How? Why KL horribly overcharges for J, I personally think they are competitive enough to slow growth. IIRC, KL has connections to 72 European cities.

Not necessarily. It will depend on where you buy your KLM ticket. KLM is a 6th freedom airline so it will sell J class tickets more cheaply in its home market than it will in other countries.

In short, KLM must offer travellers an incentive to fly via AMS rather than fly direct. It's estimated that over 60 per cent of AMS passengers are transferring flights rather than flying to/from AMS.
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:32 pm

Any regional pilot in the USA would kill to pick up an EK pilot's rig. ME3 crews are more productive than Legacy airline crews in Europe and North America, but still have a dream gig compared to many pilots at regionals and LCCs.

And they are paid handsomely for it. There is this weird notion flying around that EK have low labor costs, they don't. The headline package is admittedly slightly lower than comparative salaries in Europe, but then they pay all sorts of benefits such as housing. Moreover the salary is tax free, so many pilots actually have higher take-home pay than they would in Europe or America.
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SR4ever
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
This is the time for EU3 hub expansion. Certainly with the A321LR coming to fragment TATL.

The 321 LR could also favour new routes between European hubs and Central Asia, South Asia, Middle East and East Africa, therefore diverting some trafic from the ME3...
 
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 22):
The problem is they do not take care of their passengers anything like the ME3 take care of those who pay to fly.

The product argument is a red herring that has zilch to do with the ME3's success, never mind that EK's product is really not that great anyway, except for maybe 380 J and their tacky F. The ME3 are cheap, and that has been their biggest asset, combined with convenient schedules to places with largely terrible state carriers in their neighborhood. That's not to take anything away from their success, but no airline in history has circled the wagons because an invading carrier's service was "too good".

Quoting sirloin (Reply 23):
n a lot of routes, the full-service product can't compete because no matter how nice it might have been, it was no match for the LCC competition because of the cost.

   if people paid as much for product as they complain about it, every airline would be more like SQ, which hasn't grown in years, and less like The LCCs that are hovering up its home market
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LJ
Posts: 4989
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
How? Why KL horribly overcharges for J, I personally think they are competitive enough to slow growth. IIRC, KL has connections to 72 European cities.

Isn't that more perception than reality? The Z-fares are somtimes very cheap (I don't consider a fare under EUR 3,000 for a roundtrip AMS-SIN much). I agree, it depends on the route and time a year, but how much do you value an airline if you consider most Z-fares as "horribly overcharged". Moreover, it's not that EK (or any other ME3) is always cheap.

BTW I know the fares on TATL are higher than to Asia, but that's probably due to demand
 
SR4ever
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:18 pm

KL charges horrendous fares in J on KUL, DPS and CGK, besides SIN...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 35):
KL charges horrendous fares in J on KUL, DPS and CGK, besides SIN...

Horrendous fares when? They're pretty reasonable around $3-4K, albeit ~$1500 higher than EK, probably because of KL's superior product  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
paneuropean
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:18 pm

According to "De telegraaf" flights are most likely to start in June.


http://www.telegraaf.nl/dft/bedrijve...ates_in_juni_naar_Nederland__.html
 
LJ
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
Horrendous fares when? They're pretty reasonable around $3-4K, albeit ~$1500 higher than EK, probably because of KL's superior produc

KL AMS-SIN-AMS in J start at EUR 1,850....
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:12 am

The treaty between the Netherlands and UAE is violated as it states that the competition should be fair and unharmful to other airlines on the routes.
This is not the case.

This is why in the public statement the dutch government states that this upgrade to the A380 will not harm the position of KLM.
This is a lie of course.

The dutch pilot union is right in their claim that the treaty is violated.
This should not be allowed of course.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 38):
KL AMS-SIN-AMS in J start at EUR 1,850....

Roundtrip? When? Is that where the fare structure starts or what they're actually selling?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
DALCE
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 31):
There is this weird notion flying around that EK have low labor costs, they don't. The headline package is admittedly slightly lower than comparative salaries in Europe, but then they pay all sorts of benefits such as housing. Moreover the salary is tax free, so many pilots actually have higher take-home pay than they would in Europe or America.

Tell that to all other staff besides the pilots. Ground staff, F/A's, local office staff etc etc don't get paid too well at EK.
The guy who pushes back your F-class equipped A380 at DXB is probably a Pakistani working for DNATA getting paid around US300,- a month at max.
You can say Dnata is a contractor, which is true but contracts between Dnata and EK in DXb are based on operational cost of Dnata, so it certainly does connect.

EK operating costs are expected to be around 30-45% lower than EU-legacy airlines like LH,KL/AF,BA etc.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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sassiciai
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:32 am

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 39):
The treaty between the Netherlands and UAE is violated as it states that the competition should be fair and unharmful to other airlines on the routes.
This is not the case.

This is why in the public statement the dutch government states that this upgrade to the A380 will not harm the position of KLM.
This is a lie of course.

What a load of old cobblers! If KLM wants to, it can purchase and operate A380s as well, nobody is stopping that. I assume the treaty does not force either airline to operate specific equipment, or force one to operate tired old 747s just because the other does

Ever heard of competition? And all this coming from a Dutchman!
 
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AirIndia
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:04 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 41):
The guy who pushes back your F-class equipped A380 at DXB is probably a Pakistani working for DNATA getting paid around US300,- a month at max.

Pushback operators at DXB do not make 300$ a month. Around 2000$ a month is more accurate.
Anyways, other ground staff also get paid handsomely in comparison to what they cud make back in their home countries. So i guess no one is complaining.
 
DALCE
Posts: 1936
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:19 am

Well, apparently we don't agree here.
Since I don't want to get strangled in a political / human rights discussion I will refrain from commenting any further to this.

US$2000.- is not true, 100% not true.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:27 am

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 42):
Ever heard of competition? And all this coming from a Dutchman!

It's not about the A380. One 3-class A380 and one 2-class A380 is still less than 1% of all passenger movements at AMS (58 Million a year). I have no problem with EK operating A380s, and I don't think KL management has either (I haven't heard anything in the press from them about it). What is about is this:
Quoting DALCE (Reply 41):
EK operating costs are expected to be around 30-45% lower than EU-legacy airlines like LH,KL/AF,BA etc.

And the combination of underpaid ground staff and UAE government sponsored things like tax free salaries, cheap funding of aircraft, housing etc is what bothers the Dutch unions. Can you imagine what would happen if the Dutch government would declare KL staff don't have to pay income tax?
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
DALCE
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:35 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 45):
And the combination of underpaid ground staff and UAE government sponsored things like tax free salaries, cheap funding of aircraft, housing etc is what bothers the Dutch unions. Can you imagine what would happen if the Dutch government would declare KL staff don't have to pay income tax?

Excactly! Although free housing is only for the happy few. Most groundworkers have to pay a large part of their income for rental, and they don't exactly live in nice appartments/houses. Their living quarters are terrible, seen with my own eyes.
A sad sight, and far away almost hidden from where the tourists are spending their money.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:59 am

The second A380 flight has been loaded into the booking system, effective from February 1:

http://airlineroute.net/2016/01/06/ek-380-16q1/

Quote:
Dubai – Amsterdam eff 01FEB16 EK149/150 operated by 3-class A380, replacing 777-300ER (Overall 2 daily A380 operation)
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
LJ
Posts: 4989
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
Roundtrip? When? Is that where the fare structure starts or what they're actually selling?

Yes, try April 6th departure ex AMS and April 13th ex SIN and you get a quote of EUR 1,818. It seems that Wednesday and Thursdays in April are really bad days for KL (yieldwise).

BTW I've got a screenshot, but don't know how to get it here.
 
ojas
Posts: 1190
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RE: Dutch Ministry Approves 2nd EK A380 Daily To AMS

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:04 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 44):
US$2000.- is not true, 100% not true

It is true. They get paid between AED 7,500 - 8,000 a month. That is approximately USD 2000 a month I believe.
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