Gazdon121
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BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:27 pm

This BA flight was cancelled as the cre rest was interrupted. I have not seen this before but I guess it happens more then what we know about

http://www.thebasource.com/mobile/?p=29382
 
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Crosswind
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:56 pm

Amsterdam airport (and associated hotels) were evacuated for several hours in the middle of the night due to a security alert.
http://www.euronews.com/2016/04/12/a...-security-alert-1-person-arrested/

Not exactly a routine event, not so much rest interrupted, as no rest!  

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:12 pm

Normal given the circumstances. My last job was a pilot scheduler for a fractional operator and we had a crew evacuate the hotel in the middle of the night due to hotel fire and we had to scramble to get the trips covered and or delayed for owners scheduled on that bird that day. Our pilots had it in their contract that required 10hrs uninterrupted rest between duty off and on time. That was before FAA mandated 10hrs of rest for scheduled carriers.
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:02 pm

It's a massive inconvenience for the passengers, yes. But you know what would be worse - a crew flying fatigued who then starts making mistakes because of it. The smallest missteps or errors in judgement can snowball massively and quickly in aviation, as we all know. Making sure that the safety professionals responsible for operating the flight (be they in the cabin or the cockpit) are well rested is incredibly important, and I'm glad BA saw fit to take this step.

I've heard of similar instances in the US at both major and regional airlines when the flights were not cancelled or delayed, and I think the airlines should consider themselves extremely lucky that everything on those flights was routine and didn't require quick thinking by the crews operating them. The outcome could have been very different.

Wishing everyone happy and safe flying this weekend!
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:09 pm

Just look at all the havoc caused by 1 drunk Polish guy.. But rest assured, he's been released from custody already.

Martijn
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:18 pm

It is rare that a flight would be cancelled due to interrupted crew rest. A lot of the time we all put our heads together and make a crew decision on whether or not to waive the crew rest requirement and take the flight as scheduled. The results generally revolved around two things--how badly people need to be at home for family or personal reasons or how many people want to stick to the letter of the law (in this case a contract) that was hard fought and won. My personal experience has been that unless it was a huge disruption like a 4-5 hour security problem or hotel fire the crew will decide to take the trip (carefully reminding crew scheduling that they owe us each a favor down the road).

Of course, the main input comes from the pilots--if they say no go, we no go. Sometimes one or two of the cabin crew will decide to stick to their rights and stay at the hotel (which generally p***es the rest of us off because we have to go out short crew. But as long as we have minimum crew--that is one f/a for every 50 seats or fraction there of on the plane--we will go.

A lot of folks don't understand the 50 seat rule. This does not mean passengers booked--it literally means the number of seats physically attached to the plane. So if there are 402 seats minimum cabin crew would be nine. And no, they cannot unbolt seats. That has been tried and airlines got major FAA fines.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
32andBelow
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 2):

FAA says 10 hrs of rest with 8 hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity.
 
sandyb123
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:11 pm

Just so we're all on the same page, this was a CJ flight rather than BA mainline.

Of interest to me is that the aircraft positioned empty LCY once the required rest period was met. I assume that passengers were re-accomodated on other flights?

Sandyb123
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usflyguy
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:11 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 5):
It is rare that a flight would be cancelled due to interrupted crew rest. A lot of the time we all put our heads together and make a crew decision on whether or not to waive the crew rest requirement and take the flight as scheduled.

Just two quick questions, do you still fly and how long have you been flying?

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 5):
carefully reminding crew scheduling that they owe us each a favor down the road)

Do they make a note in the computer system that you all violated FAA mandated crew rest requirements so they owe you a favor or do they just remember the lot of you out of the 20,000+ flight attendants in the system?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
sandyb123
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:14 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 7):
Just so we're all on the same page, this was a CJ flight rather than BA mainline.

Don't know why A.net seems to think that CJ is still the IATA code for China Northern Arilines which hasn't flown since its merger with China Southern in 2003.

CJ = BA CityFlyer

Sandyb123
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Bongodog1964
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:29 pm

As BA 8457 doesn't arrive at AMS until 21.00 and BA 8450 departs at 07.15 they were close to minimum rest in any event, to lose 4 hours from this as reported in the press was sure to result in cancellation.
 
JohnGalt
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:54 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 2):

FAA says 10 hrs of rest with 8 hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity.


Keep in mind he was talking about Part 135 operations (given his username, it's pretty obvious who worked for).
 
JRadier
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:11 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 5):
The results generally revolved around two things--how badly people need to be at home for family or personal reasons

Perfect reason to pick up a flight with reduced rest...
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:21 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 8):
Do they make a note in the computer system that you all violated FAA mandated crew rest requirements so

I'm pretty sure DTWPurserBoy was talking about union crew rest agreements which are more stringent than FAA requirements. Pilots and FA's would normally not willfully violate FAA rest requirements. You were a little quick on jumping on him with that assumption.
 
32andBelow
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:21 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 12):
Perfect reason to pick up a flight with reduced rest...

Would you rather have a pilot with 9.5 hours rest or one that is pissed off that he missed his anniversary and is probably getting divorced now? Which is safer? It is a legitimate human factors question.
 
faddypainter
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:27 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 10):

If those times are right, I don't see how the same crew could have operated the return without a delay even if their rest had not been disturbed.

EU FTL requires min 10hrs rest away from base or the length of the preceding duty if greater.
 
santi319
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:34 pm

Flydubai crash anyone?? When And I mean WHEN will the flying public understand the horrifying effects of flying fatigue?!?!?! I'm glad the Western World is taking these issues seriously..
 
32andBelow
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:40 pm

Quoting santi319 (Reply 16):

Flydubai crash anyone?? When And I mean WHEN will the flying public understand the horrifying effects of flying fatigue?!?!?! I'm glad the Western World is taking these issues seriously..

It's funny if you think that the pilots actually go to be for exactly 10 hours before their flight.
 
anjin
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:32 pm

Could have been a split duty Paddy.
And just to clarify if the crew were disturbed in AMS it would not be classed as fatigue - this would be sleepiness - the need for sleep. There is a massive difference between this and the over used fatigue phrase
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting faddypainter (Reply 15):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 10):

If those times are right, I don't see how the same crew could have operated the return without a delay even if their rest had not been disturbed.

EU FTL requires min 10hrs rest away from base or the length of the preceding duty if greater.

The rest time would have been 10hrs 15mins chocks on to chocks off. I assume thats the way they measure it
 
faddypainter
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:40 pm

Additional duty time has to be given for briefing and pre and post flight duties (1hr and 30mins respectively at my airline). Crew cant just teleport from the hotel to the aircraft unfortunately. So the only way this could be rostered is as a split duty as anjin pointed out.
 
JRadier
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:07 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 14):
Would you rather have a pilot with 9.5 hours rest or one that is pissed off that he missed his anniversary and is probably getting divorced now? Which is safer? It is a legitimate human factors question.

I'd rather argue on the merits of fatigue... Get-there-itis has never proven to be a solid choice!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_1420
"Feith added that the pilots may have exhibited "get there-itis" as the pilots knew that they were approaching their 14-hour duty limits." (with references)

11 dead, another 110 injured...
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
FAA says 10 hrs of rest with 8 hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity.

If I am not mistaken that applies to cockpit crew. There is pending legislation to make the ten hour rule apply to cabin crew as well. If it happens that we have the same pilots scheduled for the following day then we get to "piggy back" on their crew rest. If you work for a unionized airline all of this is contractual. If you don't you are at the mercy of the frequently changing work rules.

A lot of the time we get off the plane, hike through the terminal to the hotel pickup area and wait for an hour. Some hotels only make one trip per hour, some go twice an hour, some every 20 minutes. Then you check in, go up to your room, peel off your grubby uniform and relax. Few people can instantly fall asleep. Lots of us resort to a hot shower/bath and, legalities permitting, perhaps an adult beverage. Personally I need about an hour to unwind staring at the TV or reading a good book.

Pick up time the next day varies--legally we have to be at the airport curbside one hour prior to scheduled departure so if your hotel is some distance from the airport it shortens your sleep time. It gets really ugly when we have to compete with other guests for the seats on the hotel van. LAX is notorious for that so we are downstairs and checked out extra early.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
ASFlyer
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:08 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 22):
If I am not mistaken that applies to cockpit crew. There is pending legislation to make the ten hour rule apply to cabin crew as well. If it happens that we have the same pilots scheduled for the following day then we get to "piggy back" on their crew rest. If you work for a unionized airline all of this is contractual. If you don't you are at the mercy of the frequently changing work rules.

There are FAA regulations that dictate minimum Flight Attendant crew rest. The minimum crew rest is 9 hours release to report, with the ability to reduce to 8 hours so long as at least 10 hours of uninterrupted rest is provided within 24 hours of the start of the original rest period. That's not something you can elect to waive. Regardless of how desperately you want to get home. It's disappointing that you would make a fellow crew member feel bad for exercising their contractual rights. As you acknowledge, those rights are hard won.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 23):
There are FAA regulations that dictate minimum Flight Attendant crew rest. The minimum crew rest is 9 hours release to report, with the ability to reduce to 8 hours so long as at least 10 hours of uninterrupted rest is provided within 24 hours of the start of the original rest period. That's not something you can elect to waive. Regardless of how desperately you want to get home. It's disappointing that you would make a fellow crew member feel bad for exercising their contractual rights. As you acknowledge, those rights are hard won.

One thing that I have found in my years of flying is that when you ask a group of flight attendants what time we go illegal you will get 12 different answers. Everyone gets a vote and no one begrudges those who elect to walk. This usually occurs on long-haul international trips where you have more wiggle room in the legalities. Domestically now we just do what the pilots do. Nothing like using the captain to cover for you. We are sooooo close to winning this 10 hour rule in congress. That will be a big help.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
32andBelow
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 22):
If I am not mistaken that applies to cockpit crew. There is pending legislation to make the ten hour rule apply to cabin crew as well. If it happens that we have the same pilots scheduled for the following day then we get to "piggy back" on their crew rest. If you work for a unionized airline all of this is contractual. If you don't you are at the mercy of the frequently changing work rules.

A lot of the time we get off the plane, hike through the terminal to the hotel pickup area and wait for an hour. Some hotels only make one trip per hour, some go twice an hour, some every 20 minutes. Then you check in, go up to your room, peel off your grubby uniform and relax. Few people can instantly fall asleep. Lots of us resort to a hot shower/bath and, legalities permitting, perhaps an adult beverage. Personally I need about an hour to unwind staring at the TV or reading a good book.

Pick up time the next day varies--legally we have to be at the airport curbside one hour prior to scheduled departure so if your hotel is some distance from the airport it shortens your sleep time. It gets really ugly when we have to compete with other guests for the seats on the hotel van. LAX is notorious for that so we are downstairs and checked out extra early.

A number of airline elected to operate under part 117 for flight attendants as well. But yes they can still run under 121. There are also 121 rules saying you can extended FA duty time by adding additional FAs.
 
smi0006
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:09 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 22):
It gets really ugly when we have to compete with other guests for the seats on the hotel van. LAX is notorious for that so we are downstairs and checked out extra early.

That's a big pain! The airlines I've worked for always had separate crew transport. How do you go for a 744 crew?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: BA Flight Cancelled As Crew Rest Was Disturbed

Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:30 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 19):

The rest time would have been 10hrs 15mins chocks on to chocks off. I assume thats the way they measure it

From what I remember the rest period would count from drop off at the crew hotel to pick up time. The ride from and to the airport and pre- and post flight work are not part of the rest time.

Jan
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