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Miami
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 2:36 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 86):
There's no way that MIA is at full capacity.

So I wonder why we're going to start busing passengers. LOL.


You were at a domestic gate. Try finding empty international gates at 5PM.

[Edited 2016-05-16 19:39:43]
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VS11
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 2:44 am

I don't think new and presumably bigger airports are necessary. In fact, the bigger the airport the more hassle to get through it. It is much more cost-effective to use bigger planes than build bigger airports for more flights. Also, frequency - a huge factor for congestion - will probably diminish as priority due to private plane-sharing stealing away customers that would care for frequency.
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 4:14 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 85):
Everywhere else where there are two or more airports, either one or more are struggling (Chicago, Tokyo, Milan, San Francisco)

Chicago? The only one struggling is GYY. It was struggling when I was taking flight instruction in C-152s and PA-38s.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 96):
If an airport needs to be replaced due to runway capacity the US should do it and not be afraid to link it to the city center with HSR. Another alternative would be implementing HSR into populous corridors to alleviate some of the air congestion in at or over capacity airports. That is the more likely long term solution for the biggest cities in the US.

To the city center? The problem is getting to the center. Can you get right of way from the city limits and through several suburbs at each end? How about all those towns in between? They won't put up with state tax dollars being used on a train they can't ride, so the trains will have to make several stops in college towns and places with 100,000 or up population. Then it stops being HSR.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 101):
frequency - a huge factor for congestion - will probably diminish as priority due to private plane-sharing stealing away customers that would care for frequency.

I dpn't see Uber happening in PA-28 and C-172 type aircraft.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 4:18 am

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 102):
Chicago? The only one struggling is GYY.

Midway is not healthy when, for all practical purposes, it is subject to a monopoly. (And a monopoly held by an airline whose culture encourages its staff to behave in what I find to be annoying fashion, and which subjects passengers to a ridiculous rigamarole in order to avoid sitting in the worst seats on the airplane.)

Chicago's only healthy airport is O'Hare.

[Edited 2016-05-16 21:19:38]
 
VS11
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 4:22 am

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 102):

I dpn't see Uber happening in PA-28 and C-172 type aircraft.

I meant jet planes sharing. There is an app/service advertising on CNBC but I forgot the name. I will update once I see it again.
 
ckfred
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 4:47 am

At some point, ORD will be at maximum capacity with no room to expand. Because the current layout of the terminal complex is in the middle of the field, trying to rebuild the terminal complex like DEN or ATL, with a series of parallel concourses, would be a logistical nightmare. There was a plan to build a new Terminal 4 and a new Terminal 6, but that was abandoned 15 years ago, and the major tenants, UA and AA, aren't in the mood for paying for a western terminal.

At that point, the airport at Peotone will become a reality. What remains to be seen is whether ORD remains as the sole gateway to Europe, Asia, and South America, or whether Peotone will become a second airport with service around the globe.

Personally, I think Peotone will be a domestic airport, ala LGA.

I wouldn't bet on the first shovel of dirt being turned for at least 20 years, if not more.
 
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YellowRibbon
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 5:37 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 97):
The problem in the Bay Area is space.

Yep, and NIMBYS against the airport/filling the bay.

"RESOLVED, That it is the policy of the City and County of San Francisco that no additional fill should be placed in San Francisco Bay for new or reconfigured runways at San Francisco International Airport..." That was in 2008.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 84):

Bulldozing Treasure Island may be a good replacement for SFO. I also saw a thread on here mentioning the closing of Travis AFB and making that a replacement to SFO for the whole region with HSR links to the Bay Area and even Sacramento.

Treausre island is very small compared to SFO (you'd need to double the length, at least for the 28s) and the proximity to the Bay Bridges and Yerba Buena Island, along with NRHP buildings makes it a slim chance.

Keep in mind that there's also OAK and SJC that serve as an alternative.
He's coming right at us!
 
blacksoviet
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 5:57 am

The trolley will never reach Miramar. There is no right-of-way available to build the track. They will have to rely on buses in a dedicated lane on State Route 163.
 
airbazar
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 1:17 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 99):
So, like they did with DEN? Except that people still use it and the city has grown up around the airport.

It's not like they have any other choice. Look at IAD vs DCA as a contrast. No one wants to fly into IAD. And besides, DEN is not that far from it's population center and it's a mere 25 mi from downtown Denver. Good luck finding space for a brand new giant airport within 25 mile of Manhattan or San Francisco. Probably not even within 50 miles.

Quoting Miami (Reply 100):

So I wonder why we're going to start busing passengers. LOL.

So terminal capacity vs. runway capacity. My guess is busing is cheaper than expanding the terminal, in the short term. Maybe they're afraid that we're in a bubble and don't want to invest and see it go to waste?

Quoting Miami (Reply 100):

You were at a domestic gate. Try finding empty international gates at 5PM.

Then replace underutilized domestic gates with international gates but don't tell me MIA is at full capacity and can't be expanded. Again, might be a risky investment at this point if/when the bubble bursts.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 3:44 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 57):
As technology progresses how about a floating airport? I believe the concept has been developed..   

Here is a discussion relating to the "floating airport concept" though I'm guessing costs are astronomical....

Discussion centers around SAN but I'm thinking it would likely be directed to more capacity for LA area.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=431389

[Edited 2016-05-17 09:18:59]
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eal
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 3:54 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 108):
Maybe they're afraid that we're in a bubble and don't want to invest and see it go to waste?

This statement would make sense except that traffic from MIA continued to increase following the 2007 financial crisis, which was "the last bubble". Not to mention that MIA already has renovation plans in place. With the troubles in Brazil and Venezuela investment has only increased due to flight capital. Plus even if there was a bubble (which all evidence points against) any forward thinking airport management would work on rennivation while the going was good in order to prepare for he after bubble recovery. I'd also like to point out that nobody would make the same argument for an airport like SFO or JFK because apparently bubbles only occur in real estate and apparently real estate is the ONLY thing that drives the MIA economy.

[Edited 2016-05-17 08:57:01]
 
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 4:36 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 108):

To add to your point about IAD and DEN: Denver is small and has very little traffic compared to the US coastal metros mentioned on this thread. So DEN can be situated 25mi away and one still has no real issues in terms of getting around. Try driving from IAD to downtown DC. The Dulles Access lanes are congestion free, unfortunately they end 12mi outside of downtown DC and drop you right in the middle of permanently congested I-66. If you live in Maryland...well, God help you! It's why DCA is almost always preferred by locals.
 
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 105):
At that point, the airport at Peotone will become a reality.

If the only alternative is Peotone, AA and UA will get religion about building new terminals at O'Hare. But they'll grow as far as they can without doing so.

Peotone is never going to happen.
 
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atypical
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 84):
Bulldozing Treasure Island may be a good replacement for SFO. I also saw a thread on here mentioning the closing of Travis AFB and making that a replacement to SFO for the whole region with HSR links to the Bay Area and even Sacramento.

The water depth in the bay at SFO averages 10 to 30 feet deep while the water on the west side of Treasure Island starts at 30 feet and goes deeper quickly. TI would also need to be expanded 5x to have the same basic area that SFO has now and would be limited in the directions flights could arrive and depart from because of downtown SFO and the bridges. Speaking of bridges, the current Bay Bridge would require at least double the capacity it now has. This could potentially make a TI airport the most expensive public works project the US ever attempted. (FYI. the bay is deeper than 300 feet in the middle of the GG span which is why the piers are so close to the land each side)

Travis would never work. The California HSR is not designed to even get close to Travis and to add a spur would be expensive and long. The depth of the bay north of SF makes tunnels prohibitive. HRS cannot share track with BART because BART uses Indian gauge tracks not standard US gauge. BART also has just one tunnel so single tracks all traffic. A long standing complaint is BART's nightly closure because it only has one tunnel. SF is a box canyon when it comes to rail. HSR designs is to follow current Caltrain tracks to Gilroy (south) where it would cross the mountains and spur north to Sacramento and south to LA. The best spot for HSR to serve Travis would be at Sacramento where it would ride on the current Amtrak tracks. In any case HSR trains would not have the frequency to serve a remote airport like Travis and even if it did the trip would still be prohibitive timewise. There north bay roads are inadequate for current traffic and even they were empty it is still a 50 to 60 mile drive from downtown SF.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 105):
At some point, ORD will be at maximum capacity with no room to expand. Because the current layout of the terminal complex is in the middle of the field, trying to rebuild the terminal complex like DEN or ATL, with a series of parallel concourses, would be a logistical nightmare. There was a plan to build a new Terminal 4 and a new Terminal 6, but that was abandoned 15 years ago, and the major tenants, UA and AA, aren't in the mood for paying for a western terminal.

At that point, the airport at Peotone will become a reality. What remains to be seen is whether ORD remains as the sole gateway to Europe, Asia, and South America, or whether Peotone will become a second airport with service around the globe.

But a terminal layout like that is the long term plan for ORD and it no more a logistical nightmare than for a new airport. There is plenty of unused land to the west so no terminals would need to be closed to build the new ones. AA and UA objections are always going to be an issue, it would require airport funds to be diverted away from improving ORD and MDW to effectively begin substantial effort on a new third/fourth (depends on if GYY is counted) area airport. AA and UA would object and probably WN too. This is of course unless Chicago residents will be expected to pickup a great deal of the tag in taxes and no passenger fees from ORD and MDW are expected to be used for the new airport. GYY has a better chance of becoming a third Chicago airport because it now has an effective length runway. But GYY would not become an EWR for Chicago, I think more on the scale of SNA at best.
 
MaxxFlyer
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 6:52 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 84):
Bulldozing Treasure Island may be a good replacement for SFO. I also saw a thread on here mentioning the closing of Travis AFB and making that a replacement to SFO for the whole region with HSR links to the Bay Area and even Sacramento.

How? For starters, runways would have to run east/west-ish to avoid the bridges. A major landfill effort. Environmentalists will never let that happen. Besides, Treasure Island is up for redevelopment, commercial and residential. There is a proposed 50 story building planned for it as well.

An old (from the 80's, maybe 90's) master plan proposed relocating 1R/19L and 28R/10L well into the bay. While it was a proposal in the master plan back then, it was a pipe dream. The NIMBY's and environmentalists would have freaked, and the cost would have run into the tens of billions.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 6:56 pm

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 102):
To the city center? The problem is getting to the center. Can you get right of way from the city limits and through several suburbs at each end? How about all those towns in between? They won't put up with state tax dollars being used on a train they can't ride, so the trains will have to make several stops in college towns and places with 100,000 or up population. Then it stops being HSR.

Doesn't necessarily have to be the city center, but it has to reach an accessible area. ROWs are certainly tough. At some point the US will have to deal with the reality that the best way to address air traffic congestion and airport capacity long term is to start providing alternative and competitive modes of transportation.
 
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 7:05 pm

Quoting DSS787 (Reply 93):

If they were smart, they would make Brown Field the replacement airport. It could function as a Bi national airport with the very close proximity to TIJ and the CBX facility. it could turn into a West Coast hub, allow Mexican flights to arrive in MEX, US flights in US and easy cross border services for those going to the other country. it would allow major carries to come in and serve two cities and two countries with one flight! It would be a huge undertaking, but endless possibilities.

Perhaps a binational airport could share a common international terminal with customs facilities for both the US and Mexico so it would only be necessary to clear customs once.
 
ScottB
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 8:24 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 103):
Midway is not healthy when, for all practical purposes, it is subject to a monopoly. (And a monopoly held by an airline whose culture encourages its staff to behave in what I find to be annoying fashion, and which subjects passengers to a ridiculous rigamarole in order to avoid sitting in the worst seats on the airplane.)

Except that there are gates available for other carriers to serve MDW if they were actually interested in doing so. MDW has become a near-monopoly for WN largely because the competition is uninterested in fighting them on their home turf.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 111):
Denver is small and has very little traffic compared to the US coastal metros mentioned on this thread. So DEN can be situated 25mi away and one still has no real issues in terms of getting around.

A few other points about DEN:
(1) It was feasible to build adequate highway access directly to the airport without extreme expense or NIMBY opposition (this wouldn't be the case in NYC, Boston, SF, etc.)
(2) The relative geographic isolation of Denver means that driving to your destination remains unattractive even with the airport having moved further out.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 96):
If an airport needs to be replaced due to runway capacity the US should do it and not be afraid to link it to the city center with HSR.

But this doesn't work because a majority of the users of pretty much every U.S. airport aren't traveling to or from the city center. So then there's the added complication of trying to reach the city center and that's typically difficult already. Plus there's the hassle of a transit mode change for people who drive and operating the HSR line doesn't come for free.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 57):
IAH on the Gulf of Mexico would be only area in that category. But IAH won't need replacing for quite a while

Houston's actually pretty far from the Gulf of Mexico, and Galveston Bay is far too sensitive environmentally. There's quite a bit of open, flat land suitable for an airport far close to Houston than the Gulf.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 84):
Enter Southwest. I can see MSY being pivotal once they fully figure out the international market. New Orleans has a large demand to Central America, and with the runways being longer in MSY than HOU, the 737-800s can easily make it to PTY, among others.

The demand from New Orleans to Latin America is teeny tiny compared to what Houston has now. WN would just end up using -700s from HOU rather than struggling to fill -800s from MSY.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 66):
But it is years ago. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, Delta had nonstops from New Orleans to MBJ, CCS, (and later MSY-MBJ-CCS), as well as MSY-SJU.

The level of international service enjoyed by MSY back in those days was largely a relic of New Orleans having been the largest city and preeminent port on the Gulf Coast for probably two centuries. By 1950, Houston's population had surpassed New Orleans and air travel patterns gradually shifted along with businesses over to Houston. Even without the devastating impact of Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans had become a poor, quaint backwater and the culture of corruption in Louisiana no doubt played a significant role.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 8:51 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 117):
But this doesn't work because a majority of the users of pretty much every U.S. airport aren't traveling to or from the city center. So then there's the added complication of trying to reach the city center and that's typically difficult already. Plus there's the hassle of a transit mode change for people who drive and operating the HSR line doesn't come for free.

It works for the literally the rest of the developed world with comparable and higher population densities. It doesn't necessarily have to be the city center, but something eventually will have to be figured out. I don't expect many to agree with me on a site that needs to have their beloved 15x daily on 3 different airlines between LGA & ORD. Until the US is serious about addressing this the continued status quo will push current infrastructure to the brink and further going forward.
 
COEWR787
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Tue May 17, 2016 9:21 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
There aren't a lot of places in the US that need new airfields, I suspect. BUT I do think we will see new terminals in a lot of places. LGA for one.

MCO is getting a huge new South Terminal Complex together with the attached multi-modal center with higher speed rail connection to West Palm beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami, and commuter rail connection to downtown. Construction is well on its way. Rumor has it that all international operation will move to the new terminal when it is commissioned, leaving the current North Terminal Complex for domestic operations. The two are to be connected by a people mover system.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 56):
I disagree. It can be expanded, at a significant cost no doubt. Not only will MIA not be replaced but FLL can still expand. EWR with only 2 parallel runways and in a far more congested airspace zone supports as many movements as MIA which has 3 parallel runways.

EWR is going to get significantly rebuilt. The teraing down of the current Terminal A and replacing it with a larger terminal further to the south and west is already funded. Eventually, apparently all terminals will be rebuilt further back towards Route 1-9 making room for a third runway parallel to the 22/4s
 
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 2:16 am

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 118):
Until the US is serious about addressing this the continued status quo will push current infrastructure to the brink and further going forward.

Instead of focusing on important stuff like infrastructure, let along fixing the current TSA fiasco. We've continued to kick the can down the route, completely underfund basic infrastructure like highways, airports, ports, public transporation, and water systems, yet focus inordinate amount of energy on fringe and splinter issues like transgender bathrooms that impact a minute decimal percentage of the population.
 
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mayor
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 2:27 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 112):

Quoting ckfred (Reply 105):
At that point, the airport at Peotone will become a reality.

If the only alternative is Peotone, AA and UA will get religion about building new terminals at O'Hare. But they'll grow as far as they can without doing so.

Peotone is never going to happen.

Exactly. Peotone was and is nothing more than a real estate spectulator's project. Logistically, it was a mess, because, unless ORD was closed down completely, no airline is going to run a split operation like that.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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thekorean
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 2:34 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 121):

Well, I suppose LCC could operate from there a la Brussels Chareloi. And cargo airlines.

But there's GYY for that. Waste of money.
 
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mayor
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 2:36 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 122):
But there's GYY for that. Waste of money.

I don't think GYY is a lot better choice. If ORD were to be closed, where do the people in the northern and western suburbs go?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
nitrohelper
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 11:54 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 123):
......... in the northern..........

Milwaukee and Rockford ?
Business has been moving over the border into WI. to avoid the higher taxes ...
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 1:48 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Quoting eal (Reply 35):
But it certainly is becoming far too crowded and far too dangerous.

SAN isn't dangerous. It has had significant operations for decades, with one truly tragic incident, which wasn't really related to airport location.
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 47):

Quoting tmiw (Reply 6):
One already happened if you count PSA 182.

PSA 182 was not due to steep approaches, short runways or one directional operations. It was failure of visual flight rules & failer of the Cesna to maintain the correct heading of 90 vs the 70 they changed to.

While the above s true, the only reason the Cessna was involved was because SAN's terrain does not allow an ILS on Runway 27. The Cessna was training on the runway 9 ILS, which made it climb toward the PS 727, arriving on RW 27.
These counter flow movements happen when limits are below Runway 27's use and some aircraft cannot takeoff on Runway 9 due to obstacles. SAN's flow rate drops under these conditions.

The East-West runways at North island won't work due terrain and population -

While there have been proposals to build an airport east of the I-15 at Miramar it would be very expensive as cut and fill would be enormous. I believe you could build an airport without noise issues at Miramar, but it may include placing the I-15 under runways moved slightly east of current.

If SAN is the only airport (Miramar unavailable) , the ultimate solution would be relievers 1.) Camp Pendleton joint airport with Orange County, 2.) Improved TIJ access, ideally making some gates US domestic in some fashion. 3.) Large hyperloop operation from SAN to LAX.
 
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STT757
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 2:06 pm

With regards to NYC.

Best option to reduce the burden on the airports, true high speed rail.

After that I always thought the Meadowlands was an area where a large airport could be built. Close Teterboro and LaGuardia, build a new commercial airport in the Meadowlands. Turn EWR into the main cargo airport, synergies with the Port, Rail yards, I-95, I-78, I-80 connections, as well as the main FBO operation.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 2:23 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 120):
Instead of focusing on important stuff like infrastructure, let along fixing the current TSA fiasco. We've continued to kick the can down the route, completely underfund basic infrastructure like highways, airports, ports, public transporation, and water systems, yet focus inordinate amount of energy on fringe and splinter issues like transgender bathrooms that impact a minute decimal percentage of the population.

Couldn't agree more. I think our airports, particularly the oldest ones are some of the most visible examples of underfunded infrastructure.
 
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atypical
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Wed May 18, 2016 5:49 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 127):
Couldn't agree more. I think our airports, particularly the oldest ones are some of the most visible examples of underfunded infrastructure.

I have a different opinion. In this I am only going to comment about airports. I think the US does an admirable job with its airports. I think the mistake being made as we analyze them is that we are attempting to take a narrow view of the situation. W

First, we can't compare the situation in the US to China or the UAE (and others). In those countries you find growth of an emerging economy expanding much faster than anyplace in the US, starting with little infrastructure, with oppressive governments willing to displace thousands at a whim for massive public projects like airports. There is no equivalency between the US and those countries. If you compare US airports to those in Europe, Canada, and Australia you do not find the US is very different from those countries as far as airport infrastructure.

Second, era of the airport. ORDs original design called for a pinwheel runway layout however that was modified after a just a few years. At that time airport design was undergoing a radical shift in thinking from layouts based on one runway having a headwind to parallel runways for increased traffic flow. Also consider TWA JFK T5. It wasn't that long ago Eero Saarinen built, what some consider, the most beautiful airline terminal ever. Today it is unusable for that purpose because airline travel has changed so much. For terminal design two years have huge impacts: 1959 and 1969. 1959 was the year the 707 started to make transoceanic flights and 1969 was the 747's first flight. passenger screening is just as important but harder to date. We have a lot of older infrastructure that we just can't discard. It needs to be rehabilitated and will never be equal to what we would do today with a clean sheet. New airports are not panaceas for old ones. The compromises required along with the expense for new airports generally make them less desirable that rehabilitation of old ones.

Third, ground up new airports are aberrations and should remain so. Transportation infrastructure is expensive and this is a mature industry. Yes there are times new infrastructure is required but we should be beyond that for the most part in the US. Building new infrastructure is to fill gaps, not to change direction. We closed Stapleton airport in the 80's but when was the last time we replaced and closed a major section of railroad, interstate highway, or a major port? As a country we flushed a lot of money down the toilet by closing Stapleton. With infrastructure, it is one thing to spend money on something you keep, it is another to spend it on something that is discarded.

Lastly, the US does invest in new terminals and airport infrastructure. IND and DAL are two recent examples. Less recent (last 40 or so years) but no less important are DEN, DFW, TPA, MCO, and many others.
 
Aeri28
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 19, 2016 2:33 am

Getting to the original title of this post (Will the US build...), are US airports built on a federal level? Is the United States the one actually building airports and deciding if so? Who actually would pay for such a thing? The cities? Counties? part federal grant? the arlines themselves? taxes, bonds that the public must vote on?
 
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atypical
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 19, 2016 3:41 am

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 129):
Getting to the original title of this post (Will the US build...), are US airports built on a federal level? Is the United States the one actually building airports and deciding if so? Who actually would pay for such a thing? The cities? Counties? part federal grant? the arlines themselves? taxes, bonds that the public must vote on?

Highly dependent. Most of the money for airport improvement comes from the AIP (Airport Improvement Program) as a grant for a specific project with conditions (one of which is that the airport remains one for perpetuity). The next biggest chunk will be the federal ticket fees which the local authority has access to a portion. This is primarily what would pay off the bonds. The local community may need to add more or less depending if the project is beyond what the FAA will authorize. Say the community wants a 7,500 ft runway but the FAA will only pay for 7,000 feet in the AIP. localities are not allowed to take any revenue generated from the airport and use it except on airport projects however it may not be the same airport.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 19, 2016 4:03 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 117):
The level of international service enjoyed by MSY back in those days was largely a relic of New Orleans having been the largest city and preeminent port on the Gulf Coast for probably two centuries.

You could sum it up with three simple letters: O-I-L

Back then, Houston had not yet consolidated as the nation's unrivaled energy center, and NOLA was still highly competitive in breath of business and scope of operations.

The tide began to shift in Houston's favor in the late '50s early '60s, and was more or less won by the early '80s.... when NOLA was the runner up for the 1984 Olympic bid, and hosted the (disastrous) World's Fair as a consolation-- its last harrah as a first tier US business market.

The loss of British Airways + consolidation in the CenAm market, further limited the city's international aviation. By 2002, its yearround scheduled international service was down to 1 Canadian carrier and 1 CenAm carrier.

And it's still exactly that, today.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 117):
and the culture of corruption in Louisiana no doubt played a significant role.

      

A lot of people don't realize just how pivotal a role that the Italian mob played in Louisiana: from the early '40s through the late '60s, the place was Gangland South. No business was done without a tithe to the local, Chicago, and New York "families."

IMO, it's a big reason that much of the city's gambling business began to shift to LAS and its energy business to Texas.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 19, 2016 4:20 am

US Airport infrastructure is really mature.

Maybe in 50 years if NYC kept expanding north, we could see real use of Stewart Airport... it might get international flights...
But again...that's not a new airport, that's expanding an existing one.

People all over the US are flocking to the west/east coast and major city centers... Population is growing in areas with existing airports (that many times fit the bill just fine) and no where to put a new one when the existing one no longer is sufficient.
learning never stops.
 
N1120A
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 19, 2016 7:41 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 98):
Yep, Bay area, LA Area, NYC ...same problem. NO SPACE.

Well, part of NYC's problem is a waste of space with the IATA code LGA. If aircraft didn't have to fly halfway to Bermuda to land at JFK, there would be a lot of traffic relief. LGA inefficiently gobbles up airspace.

Quoting YellowRibbon (Reply 106):
Yep, and NIMBYS against the airport/filling the bay.

"RESOLVED, That it is the policy of the City and County of San Francisco that no additional fill should be placed in San Francisco Bay for new or reconfigured runways at San Francisco International Airport..." That was in 2008.

Can't exactly blame them, and it isn't so much NIMBYs, but an issue of how much is too much?

Quoting YellowRibbon (Reply 106):
Keep in mind that there's also OAK and SJC that serve as an alternative.

Both of which are underutilized and far more useful than alternatives in other places.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 84):
Bulldozing Treasure Island may be a good replacement for SFO

Not a chance, for many reasons mentioned above.

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 107):
The trolley will never reach Miramar. There is no right-of-way available to build the track. They will have to rely on buses in a dedicated lane on State Route 163.

Well, the Trolley is already being built to the UTC, so it isn't as if turning the corner is particularly hard.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 117):
Except that there are gates available for other carriers to serve MDW if they were actually interested in doing so. MDW has become a near-monopoly for WN largely because the competition is uninterested in fighting them on their home turf.

MDW is an absolute nightmare to use at this point, given the issues there with security access. They have to rebuild that horrid checkpoint before they can do anything.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 120):
let along fixing the current TSA fiasco.

You fix that fiasco by ending the TSA.

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 125):
the only reason the Cessna was involved was because SAN's terrain does not allow an ILS on Runway 27. The Cessna was training on the runway 9 ILS,

Luckily, flight training pretty much stays confined to Montgomery and Gillespie now.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 127):
Couldn't agree more. I think our airports, particularly the oldest ones are some of the most visible examples of underfunded infrastructure.

Actually, I think our airports are some of the only infrastructure spends any money on. And it is sad.

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 132):
Maybe in 50 years if NYC kept expanding north, we could see real use of Stewart Airport... it might get international flights...
But again...that's not a new airport, that's expanding an existing one.

People all over the US are flocking to the west/east coast and major city centers... Population is growing in areas with existing airports (that many times fit the bill just fine) and no where to put a new one when the existing one no longer is sufficient.

Stewart is one airport that could see expanded use, if connectivity was there. The Port Jervis extension has been approved, but no money has been appropriated for it. A fast connection to NYC would enable Stewart to soak up much more traffic. Could even be the impetus for finally killing off LGA.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ltbewr
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 19, 2016 8:01 am

If global warming with rising sea levels continues, a number of coastal airports in the USA (as well as the rest of the world) could be in trouble and a need for large international airports further inland and higher in elevation from current ones.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 19, 2016 2:26 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 133):
Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 107):
The trolley will never reach Miramar. There is no right-of-way available to build the track. They will have to rely on buses in a dedicated lane on State Route 163.

Well, the Trolley is already being built to the UTC, so it isn't as if turning the corner is particularly hard.

If they extended the UTC extension the travel time downtown from Miramar would be way to long. There could be a transfer involved at Old Town and the UTC extension takes a circular tour of UCSD on the way to UTC. The trolley is limited to 45MPH, not really as effective as BRT bus routes.

Dedicated lanes may be hard to build, but even without, bus service would be more realistic.

There also is the possibility of a Amtrac/Coaster Station at Miramar, where a short shuttle could take passengers to the terminal. Amtrac/Coaster frequency isn't really sufficient to be a good alternative throughout the day.
 
elbandgeek
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 20, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 133):
MDW is an absolute nightmare to use at this point, given the issues there with security access. They have to rebuild that horrid checkpoint before they can do anything.

They're doing exactly that.

Honestly Peotone will likely not happen for a very long time if ever but as someone who lives in the southland I've always resented people who act like it was a stupid political pet project from the get go. When it was first proposed the south suburbs were the fastest growing area of the city. That has obviously changed over the years because really nothing is growing, but people up north are so insistent that there is nothing of value down this way and if it's not convenient for them it shouldn't be convenient for anyone. Is it a perfect idea? Far from it, and there probably could have been better southern locations further west along I-80 (or even the Calumet site that preceded it). But to dismiss is as some joke is really just a sign you think the metro area stops south of the loop.
 
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mayor
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 20, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 136):
Honestly Peotone will likely not happen for a very long time if ever but as someone who lives in the southland I've always resented people who act like it was a stupid political pet project from the get go. When it was first proposed the south suburbs were the fastest growing area of the city. That has obviously changed over the years because really nothing is growing, but people up north are so insistent that there is nothing of value down this way and if it's not convenient for them it shouldn't be convenient for anyone. Is it a perfect idea? Far from it, and there probably could have been better southern locations further west along I-80 (or even the Calumet site that preceded it). But to dismiss is as some joke is really just a sign you think the metro area stops south of the loop.

Not sure about the others, but I was born and raised about 11 miles south of Aurora, which puts me closer to Will County than it does some of the northern suburbs. For 8 1/2 years I drove to ORD, every day, so I think I know about the lay of the land. I get the same feeling about Rockford when someone mentions Peotone. Peotone MAY BE great for central Illinois and maybe Champaign, but it certainly would do nothing for those that live in Aurora, Elgin, St. Charles, Geneva, Naperville and those closer into the city. They've painted themselves into a corner, I'm afraid.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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YellowRibbon
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 20, 2016 5:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 133):
Can't exactly blame them, and it isn't so much NIMBYs, but an issue of how much is too much?

Two runways will not take up that much of the Bay; Much of the airport itself is bay fill (so is OAK). However I prefer the current runways for photography.

On another note there are NIMBYs who complain about the airport noise. I wonder how many have lived there since 1927...or with the first scheduled jets in 1959...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 133):
Both of which are underutilized and far more useful than alternatives in other places.

Yes, SJC and OAK are suitable alternatives. I don't see Treasure Island or NGZ (formerly NAS Alameda) becoming an airport again. SUU and SCK are pretty far from SF.
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 20, 2016 5:42 am

SFO needs a 4300 foot separation on the NW/SE runways to get dual ILS opeations. Filling in the 10-20 depth of water is only a problem with environmentalists. There is so much water in the Bay, I don't see how such an extension would be a disaster.

However, with the runways spread farther apart, departures may be an issue as threading the needle during poor weather to cross two active arrival runways 4300+ feet apart at a 90 degree angle could be a problem.
 
PITrules
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 20, 2016 6:36 am

Time for this diagram again. What SFO should look like.
FLYi
 
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atypical
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Sun May 22, 2016 9:55 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 140):
Time for this diagram again. What SFO should look like

If this ever was on a Master Plan it appears to have been pre-2000. Boarding Area B in this proposal is a mirror version of F. That has been changed for a very long time now. Since then the FAA has also changed the size of the runway clearways. The 19R-1L proposed is too close to F. Since the 19-1 pair is generally used for departures it probably needs no change anyway. Actually since all three bay area airports are required to change approach directions together I bet it has been years since those runways were used for landing except for an incredibly rare event.

Does SFO have a Master Plan online anywhere? I would like to see if the Airport Comission has a new runway plan of if they have avoided the question altogether.
 
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msp747
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Sun May 22, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 108):

It's not like they have any other choice. Look at IAD vs DCA as a contrast. No one wants to fly into IAD. And besides, DEN is not that far from it's population center and it's a mere 25 mi from downtown Denver.

IAD is 27 miles from downtown DC, so it's not like there's not a big difference between it and Denver. The reason why IAD struggles whereas DEN does not is that Denver closed the alternative. If Stapleton was still open, DEN would probably struggle more than IAD, since DEN does not have nearly as strong an international presence as Dulles does. IIRC, DCA was supposed to close with IAD, but members of Congress changed their mind because they liked that DCA was just down the street. If DCA had been closed when IAD opened, the long awaited rail link would have been built decades ago, and probably with an express line, or at least fewer stops than the upcoming Silver Line. The Dulles Access Road probably would have also extended all the way into the District, not ending at I-66.
 
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YellowRibbon
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Sun May 22, 2016 10:01 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 141):
Since the 19-1 pair is generally used for departures it probably needs no change anyway. Actually since all three bay area airports are required to change approach directions together I bet it has been years since those runways were used for landing except for an incredibly rare event.

They use the 19s for landings and the 10s for departures, as I recall during the winter months due to wind. Departures off of the 19s are quite rare but it has happened this year.

Landings on the 1s are very rare too, but again, it's due to wind. It’s an amazing sight to see though.
He's coming right at us!
 
blacksoviet
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Thu May 26, 2016 11:29 am

They could use the wye at Miramar to build a spur into a new airport, then all Coaster and/or Amtrak trains could serve it but they would have to leave then re-enter the mainline track at the wye, which would mean a longer trip time between Solana Beach and Downtown San Diego for those not going to the airport.

For those who don't know, a wye allows a train to change direction without uncoupling the locomotive.

[Edited 2016-05-26 05:08:45]
 
Nola
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 27, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 43):
Denver would have been the last I know of. LGA and SLC would be the closest to that now on the same land. Houston is planning a major change, but a whole new thing, no. I would like to see San Diego grow or move to a new site.

The other would be MSY, which has begun construction of a new North terminal to replace the current passenger terminal on the South side of the airport. The current garages and rental car facility will be used (with shuttle busses), nod one concourse will be kept for offices and charter operations but the scheduled passenger operations are to be fully contained in the new terminal. A parking structure and hotel are also to be built. Total cost is projected at around 1B including access roadway and other infrastructure improvements.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 131):

Quoting ScottB (Reply 117):
The level of international service enjoyed by MSY back in those days was largely a relic of New Orleans having been the largest city and preeminent port on the Gulf Coast for probably two centuries.

You could sum it up with three simple letters: O-I-L

Back then, Houston had not yet consolidated as the nation's unrivaled energy center, and NOLA was still highly competitive in breath of business and scope of operations.

The tide began to shift in Houston's favor in the late '50s early '60s, and was more or less won by the early '80s.... when NOLA was the runner up for the 1984 Olympic bid, and hosted the (disastrous) World's Fair as a consolation-- its last harrah as a first tier US business market.

The loss of British Airways + consolidation in the CenAm market, further limited the city's international aviation. By 2002, its yearround scheduled international service was down to 1 Canadian carrier and 1 CenAm carrier.

And it's still exactly that, today.

Actually, no, or, rather, it was a lot more than oil. Geography played a large role.

The decline of the New Orleans market, while impacted by the oil depression of the 1989's, which saw the oil industry consolidate (except for some E&P jobs which remained in New Orleans/Lafayette), was caused by strong hubs to the east (Atlanta and Miami) and west (IAH) that were better located to serve omnidirectional geographical areas (With the exception of Miami, which became AA's hub for South America) coupled with the failure of carriers that had focus operations at MSY such as Braniff and National following deregulation and reallocation of resources by other carriers, like Delta, that had strong operations at MSY.

CO's corporate move from LAX to Texas probably didn't help either.

MSY's only chance to for a hub was UA, which flirted with the idea.

The lack of a Southern catchment area, small metro population (1.2m) and lack of strong business O&D is what really eliminated MSY's opportunity for a stronger operation. Unlike Houston and Atlanta, which can grow in a concentric pattern, New Orleans is surrounded by water, making growth practical only to the North (across a lake) and West (across swampland).

If the airport had been built elsewhere, such as the Northshore of Lake Pontchartrain or, maybe to the west between Nola and Baton Rouge, a much larger population would be involved and that might make it more possible, but that's just not how things played out.
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 27, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting msp747 (Reply 142):

There's a huge difference between Denver and DC. The DC metro is twice the size of Denver and that's not including Baltimore. There is much more traffic in DC compared to Denver and it plays a role into why IAD struggles.

Also, If Stapleton were still open and was the preferred airport then DIA would have pax numbers way lower than IAD. It would be probably be another YMX. DENs O&D numbers are high for a smaller market because it's in a geographic sweet spot but the market is not large enough to support two major airports. Just like the DC/Balt market is not large enough to successfully support three major airports.
 
muralir
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 27, 2016 6:27 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 128):
I think the mistake being made as we analyze them is that we are attempting to take a narrow view of the situation.

I agree. I think we all like shiny new stuff, but there's a reason new airports don't get built in the US. Essentially, in order to justify new airports, you have to grow fast enough to overwhelm the growth that can be managed by the continued improvement of airport ops, and the continual improvement of plane technology. If you assume, for example, that improving airport tech means the same airport can handle 2% more passengers each year, and improving airplane tech means the average plane carries 2% more passengers each year, then you need air traffic to increase >4% each year to justify new airports. Even then, you can sometimes get better by investing more in pre-existing airport ops.

The only places where new airports are justified are places like China, India, and the Middle East, in which you have very high air traffic growth rates (even higher than their GDP growth) and a very small base of pre-existing airports, which means the typical capacity improvements seen with tech / ops / airplane capital investments aren't enough.

All that said, I also think you discount the amount of "new airports" being constructed in the U.S. Take O'Hare. The runway re-configuration has essentially added the capacity equivalent of a DFW or a JFK. And when the diagonal runways are decommissioned, they will have enough room to add a new terminal complex as large as the entire Terminal 1,2,3 complex they have now (if not larger). It's truly stunning what they've managed to accomplish (all teething pains and noise complaints aside   All of this, of course, won't be done overnight; it will be dictated by growth in traffic. But that's the master plan, and runway construction is usually the harder part (vs. terminals), and that's now completed.

When you consider that a great international airport like LHR only has 2 runways, and ORD went from 6 intersecting runways to 6 parallel runways (and 2 diagonals), then I question why a "new" airport is better. Similarly, Peotone would be a "new" airport, but it if they've added as much capacity into O'hare, and they build an entire new modern terminal complex, how is that not better?
 
a380787
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RE: Will The US Ever Build A New Int'l Airport?

Fri May 27, 2016 6:45 pm

Quoting muralir (Reply 147):

Very well said. I'll add that each of the US4 has at least 7 focus city/hubs. Even when their "key" transit hubs have saturated, they can always re-route the growth through another hub. Of course, having an airport next to some rural field really helps with growth as opposed to dealing with NIMBYs or environmentalists (e.g. SFO / JFK).

Take AA for instance. Between CLT ORD DFW PHX, there are so many ways they can route a passenger east-west.

For China, it's a vanity project. For UAE and specifically Dubai, it's a GDP line item on its own.

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