LH4116
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Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:31 am

Hello
I'm wondering if it's possible to have wooden floors onboard airliners. I assume that it could might add up some weight and make it a bit difficult during maintenance. Having wooden floor throughout the aircraft cabin may seem unrealistic but is it possible to have wooden floor in the aisles?
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anax
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:53 am

IMO unrealistic no , because today impossible is nothing. But what about the weight?
it would be super heavy.
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moo
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:09 am

Airbus was looking at using cork as fuselage lining a couple of years back, not sure where that went in the end.
 
Jasondn
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:16 am

What about laminated floors? that is light and would be easy to remove or install. I think the safety issue might come into play with fire though.
 
Jasondn
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:27 am

I just remembered where I have seen it before. It is in the forward galley/entrance of the Gulf Air A320s. They have a dark brown laminated wood flooring on the entrance to the plane. No picuters of it in the database though. Another concern in having it in the isles would be the noise of everyone walking up and down, especially on long over night flights.
 
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OA412
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:40 am

DL currently has faux wood floors in the lavs.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:54 am

Rather than weight I was thinking Flame retardant & flame resistant properties  Smile
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LH4116
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:39 am



Quoting Jasondn (Reply 3):
What about laminated floors? that is light and would be easy to remove or install. I think the safety issue might come into play with fire though.

Laminate floors could might be better than real wooden floors but the real stuff is doesn't get damaged so easily as laminate, laminate is of course much lighter than wood. When it comes to fire issues i guess that the carpets used in most airlines are more likely to catch fire than laminate or wooden floors. I guess that it could might be good to have the floor as panels rather than planks, it would get much easier to install and remove during maintenance.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 5):
DL currently has faux wood floors in the lavs.

That's interesting, are there any pics?
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rfields5421
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:38 pm

My understanding that most "wood" on aircraft is an extremely thing veneer - say .125 inches or less.

Just enough for color/ grain, with the structural strength coming from the backing material and a hard plastic covering to protect it from damage.

That's the parts which are real wood. Most is like the cheaper "wood" flooring - printed patterns on paper in the laminate.

According to http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html - Aspen wood weighs 26 lbs per cubic foot, black walnut 38, red oak 44, live oak 59.

Aluminum weighs 165 lbs per cubic foot - so it is actually quite heavier than wood. However, wood cannot be worked and formed into structurally strong shapes like aluminum. So the volume of wood to achieve the same structural strength must be greater than aluminum.

The carpets are the most fire-retardant possible, and any wood for aircraft is pretty much the same because the protective covering can be made from the same chemicals as the carpet.

So there is no real fire issue, no real weight issue as long as very thin veneers are used.

It's an appearance and maintenance issue, and possibly safety.

People wear the dangest things on aircraft, and many of the shoes have almost no grip. Carpet provides a surface with almost any shoe will not slide, however wood with a hard surface will be more slippery, especially when something is spilled upon it.
 
pilotboi
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:10 pm

My question is....WHY? To make it look nice? Honestly, I think it would look horrible.
 
2H4
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:03 pm

Anything is possible if you've got enough money. I'd say the lack of wooden floors in airliners is more of an indication that they don't offer enough of an ROI than an indication of a technical obstacle preventing their use.

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rampart
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:21 pm

I'm thinking of the splinters generated if the aircraft crashed. Think, wood planks in a tornado. Ouch! (then again, is this any worse than aluminum shards? probably not)

Nobody's mentioned the Spruce Goose. IIRC, one of the main goals was to be able to build a major airplane out of something other than metal, in case strategic materials were embargoed or in short supply in time of war. Someone else can fill in, but I do think there were both German and British examples of wooden constructed aircraft in WW II, for similar reason. But, it's rainy here, I need more coffee, and my memory is soggy.

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2H4
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:34 pm



Quoting Rampart (Reply 11):
I'm thinking of the splinters generated if the aircraft crashed.

Well, technically, I think particle board could be used to prevent splintering.

Wood can actually exhibit a lot of the properties that modern carbon fiber composites can. It's outdated, but it still has some very legitimate strengths.

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roseflyer
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:18 pm

Wood is a great material for strength to weight. However it is a horrible material in bending. It's good at compression. Being good at compression makes it idea for a house, but not for an airplane.

The floor material on an airplane is incredibly light weight. The composite material feels about as heavy as a couple of pieces of cardboard. It's really surprising that something so light weight can take the load of a 300 lbs person.
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soon7x7
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:21 pm

BBj's may use a veneer as they would still be laminated to the composite floor panels but makes no sense as veneers extremely thin. Don't think any commercial carrier would use them as the type would not hold up to the abuse...
 
L-188
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:38 pm

At this point should I point out that the main deck floor of the KC-135 is plywood?


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Viscount724
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:52 pm



Quoting Rampart (Reply 11):
Someone else can fill in, but I do think there were both German and British examples of wooden constructed aircraft in WW II, for similar reason.

One of the most notable WWII aircraft almost entirely made of wood De Havilland Mosquito bomber. It was a very versatile aircraft and was faster than some fighters. Almost 8,000 were built including about 1,100 in Canada and about 200 in Australia.

Apart from the engines, engine mounts and landing gear, I think the only significant metal parts were the ailerons, rudder and elevators. Even the flaps were wood.

 
L-188
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:54 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Quoting Rampart (Reply 11):
Someone else can fill in, but I do think there were both German and British examples of wooden constructed aircraft in WW II, for similar reason.

One of the most notable WWII aircraft almost entirely made of wood De Havilland Mosquito bomber. It was a very versatile aircraft and was faster than some fighters. Almost 8,000 were built including about 1,100 in Canada and about 200 in Australia.

That is probably the best example of an operational aircraft, although they had to be nailed together after a while flying in the south pacific since the used milk-based glues.

There where a few notable examples of the use of "Plywood" in US aircraft. Howard Hughes probably was the most notable designer the prime two being the HK-1 and the F.11 which damm near killed him in a post war crash.
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2H4
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:18 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 17):
That is probably the best example of an operational aircraft

I think the Bellanca Viking might be an even better example of an operational aircraft. From Plane & Pilot Magazine:

Construction by hand has always been a key ingredient of the Bellancas that few other manufacturers could match. By definition, a wood-and-fabric airplane is constructed by hand. The Sitka spruce and mahogany plywood wings are lovingly assembled from 1,800 individual, pre-formed pieces, some as small as a matchbook.

In fact, the wing has always been Bellanca’s primary claim to fame. A classic airfoil shape, the Viking’s smooth, seamless, 34-foot, Bellanca B wing is probably the closest thing in aviation to a work of art. Ask aircraft designers who truly understand light aircraft construction and performance, and they’ll tell you that, in many respects, Sitka spruce is a better material for building small- to medium-sized airframes than metal or composite materials.

Wood has no memory, as does aluminum, so it’s highly resistant to dings. It’s also more resilient, willing to flex thousands of times without stressing or breaking, and it doesn’t delaminate under high temperature or repeated G-loads. Wood is lighter than metal (only about 250 pounds for a finished Viking wing) and offers an easily shaped, rivetless, aerodynamic surface that’s ideally adapted to a small aircraft wing.


Full article here.

2H4
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BAE146QT
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:07 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Sitka spruce is a better material for building small- to medium-sized airframes than metal or composite materials.

You might not be aware of this, but dings in lighter woods (spruce as well as many other pines) can actually be removed by ironing.

All you do is lay a damp cloth over the dent, and use a domestic iron on it at medium heat. That's it. The dent will pull itself out.

It's a trick known to housekeepers throughout the world, and it's so simple that it's not even funny. As a strong, resilient construction material, wood rules... up to a point of course!  Smile
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L-188
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:40 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
think the Bellanca Viking might be an even better example of an operational aircraft. From Plane & Pilot Magazine:

I was thinking of larger aircraft.

But if you are talking about smaller aircraft I would bring in the Lockheed Vega.
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LH4116
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:47 pm

If wooden floors wouldn't be that popular on commercial airliners, why not have them in private jets? Is it possible that an airline (i'm talking about EK, QR, EY) decides to have wooden floors in their onboard lounges?
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2H4
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 19):
You might not be aware of this, but dings in lighter woods (spruce as well as many other pines) can actually be removed by ironing.

All you do is lay a damp cloth over the dent, and use a domestic iron on it at medium heat. That's it. The dent will pull itself out.

Wow, I never knew that. Cool.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 20):
I was thinking of larger aircraft.

Ah, I see. You're right...not many larger aircraft had wood wings and/or airframes.

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CanadianNorth
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:56 pm

The HS748s at Air North feature wood floors all the time. However, they are just plywood sheets under the cargo to protect the real floor underneath to keep it somewhat nice for the next time it's reconfigured for seats.

Anyways, wood is a great material to work with, but I think the isle would just get too noisy and around the seats would just get scratched to s**t from luggage etc. Would probably look nice when new though...


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MD-90
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:49 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Wood has no memory, as does aluminum, so it’s highly resistant to dings. It’s also more resilient, willing to flex thousands of times without stressing or breaking, and it doesn’t delaminate under high temperature or repeated G-loads. Wood is lighter than metal (only about 250 pounds for a finished Viking wing) and offers an easily shaped, rivetless, aerodynamic surface that’s ideally adapted to a small aircraft wing.

Too bad it's so hard to inspect older laminated spars to see how well the glue's holding up. It should say something that so many aerobatic aircraft have wooden wings, however.

And Bellancas are gorgeous but they're not designed with modern-sized Americans in mind...they fly beautifully but they're awfully narrow.
 
Buzz
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:48 am

Hi L-188, Buzz here. On a DC-3 I used to play with there were plywood floorboards down the center aisle of the cabin.
N136PB/ NC18121 was a 1937 DC-3 built for Eastern. She's got a lot of history. In the mid 1950's she was rebuilt for Trans Texas Airways into a DC-3A and I think that's where she got the plywood center floor boards.
I recall a story in A+P school a long time ago that the high heel shoes tend to concentrate a gal's weight in a tiny area... leaving dents in the normal aluminum floor boards. So the center aisle was rebuilt with plywood.
It didn't add a lot of weight, on an 18,000 lb airplane.

And you need to be careful what kind of wood you choose. AC 43-13.1B and 2B "Acceptable Methods, Practices, and Techniques" is the basic book that every A+P student gets to know. There's a couple chapters given to wood selection, and repair. Spruce seems to be the top choice for lightness vs. strength, Douglas Fir is a close second. I'm avoiding Hemlock... it's brittle. Every time we have an icy snow event the Hemlock tree in our yard loses some large branches. It doesn't flex well.

g'day
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:48 pm

Quoting Buzz (Reply 25):
Spruce seems to be the top choice for lightness vs. strength,

Spot on. This is the reason that modellers use it. Not because we have (airborne) people to worry about, but because it means you can use lower-powered - and cheaper! - motors. It's also used in 350mph+ jet models, so it's strong, too.

::EDIT:: Mind you, when they do come apart, it's very sudden and looks like someone fired a wooden dowel out of a shotgun....

[Edited 2008-09-29 10:49:43]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:03 pm

THe MD-80 uses sandwich material with two aluminium skins laminated to a balsa wood core for cargo hold floors.

The DC-3 I used to work on used plywood cabin floor panels as well.

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walter2222
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:56 pm

Although this is an oldie, the floor seems to be a kind of wood. I am not sure whether this is the original configuration:


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Sinlock
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:40 pm

The 720 I use to work on had plywood decking in the cabin. The real bad thing was it's prior job 6 months before we got it was hauling cattle.  yuck 
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:13 pm

So how about the expanding and retracting of the wood in a moist environment? Sure you wouldn't want to find your floor plates in a nice arc shape when you want to fly your aircraft!

Not sure if this occurs with air pressure as well?
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dl767captain
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:36 pm

Well real hardwood floors may not be great due to weight but i know DL has some wooden floors in their bathrooms which is actually a really nice touch so i guess they could use that but i'm sure it would show more dirt and spills would be an issue for slipping
 
mirrodie
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RE: Wooden Floors In Airliners, Possible?

Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:03 pm

http://nycaviation.com/forum/viewtop...c.php?f=9&t=13439&p=100689#p100689

scroll down 4-5 pics.

How is this for a wood interior?!
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