Opposite To "Positive Climb, Gear Up"?

richm · Wed May 06, 2009 4:27 pm

Hey,

This isn't exactly going to win any awards for being a great topic, but it's just something I've been wondering.

Shortly after rotation, airline pilots usually say "Positive climb, gear up". With that in mind, what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point? (stall)

- Rich

BMI727 · Wed May 06, 2009 4:37 pm

Roll the crash trucks.

IAHFLYR · Wed May 06, 2009 4:43 pm

Probably a few words which will get the famous "expletive" on the accident report when transcribing the CVR..

Mir · Wed May 06, 2009 4:48 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
Probably a few words which will get the famous "expletive" on the accident report when transcribing the CVR..

That's probably the smart bet. thumbsup

-Mir

tistpaa727 · Wed May 06, 2009 4:55 pm

Technically, the opposite would be negative decent, gear down. Which would be odd because two negatives make a positive, so the plane is climbing but with its gear down...

Sorry, couldn't resist taking the thread topic literally.

Stitch · Wed May 06, 2009 4:57 pm

Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 4):
Technically, the opposite would be negative decent, gear down. Which would be odd because two negatives make a positive, so the plane is climbing but with its gear down...

But gear down is not actually a negative, it's just a statement of position. When landing, "gear down" is certainly a statement with positive intonations yet hearing the words "gear up" during taxi would strike me as having negative intonations. Big grin

vikkyvik · Wed May 06, 2009 5:22 pm

Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 4):
negative decent

Wouldn't a "negative descent" actually be a climb?

EDIT:

Wow, way to read the whole post, Vik. Sorry TISTPAAS727, you clearly beat me to that.

~Vik

[Edited 2009-05-06 10:25:22]

David L · Wed May 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 4):
negative decent, gear down. Which would be odd because two negatives make a positive

... which means that "negative descent" is not the opposite of "positive climb", no matter how literally you look at it. Smile

I suppose "BRACE, BRACE, BRACE" would be another alternative. But, seriously, if the situation dictates that "positive climb, gear up" isn't appropriate, perhaps instinct and training are just about all you have time for?

tb727 · Wed May 06, 2009 8:57 pm

You probably start looking for secondary indicators of a climb(maybe look out the window) and start thinking of what you are going to do. Technically, at least the way my company does it, the PNF is looking inside for abnormalities and should call "positive rate" when you get a positive rate of climb on the VSI and on the altimeter, then the PF says gear up. I think in a lot of cases it ends up being something you just say without actually checking, you'll see that in the sim a lot with new guys on V1 engine failures.

If you truly didn't have positive rate, you would just pitch for V2 and hope she climbs eventually!

Goldenshield · Wed May 06, 2009 9:34 pm

Quoting RichM (Thread starter):
"Positive climb, gear up".

Not to nit-pick, but the phrase is "Positive rate, gear up."

Max Q · Wed May 06, 2009 9:45 pm

Depends on what part of the world you're in G Shield, 'Positive Climb' Gear up is widely used outside the US.

Goldenshield · Wed May 06, 2009 10:16 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
Depends on what part of the world you're in G Shield, 'Positive Climb' Gear up is widely used outside the US.

You're right. I didn't notice his Union Jack.

Still, using RATE makes more sense than CLIMB, because RATE is states velocity, while CLIMB inherently states that something is increasing. So "positive climb" is really just "positive positive". Otherwise, you might as call descent as "negative climb."

zappbrannigan · Wed May 06, 2009 11:11 pm

Saying "positive rate" (apart from most likely being a company procedure) is really there as confirmation to yourself and the person in the other seat that you've visually established a RoC before selecting gear up. It doesn't mean you'll be stating something similar but "negative" if you're not climbing (well, you will be stating something to that effect, but it won't be directly related to the "positive rate" call).

There are lots of times, probably more so with light aircraft ops, where it's normal to state something before carrying out an action, simply as confirmation to yourself and others that it's appropriate to carry out the action. For instance, stating "speed below , gear down" (again, light aircraft world here) - simply confirmation to yourself and others that you've checked and confirmed airspeed below max extension speed before gear down.

swiftski · Thu May 07, 2009 10:50 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 11):
Still, using RATE makes more sense than CLIMB, because RATE is states velocity, while CLIMB inherently states that something is increasing. So "positive climb" is really just "positive positive". Otherwise, you might as call descent as "negative climb."

I disagree.

For airfields where the ground sweeps away at the end of the runway, rad alt isn't as reliable as pressure alt, as rad alt may show rate increasing due to lowering terrain, not due to a climb.

$.02

Starlionblue · Thu May 07, 2009 10:58 am

Quoting RichM (Thread starter):

This isn't exactly going to win any awards for being a great topic,

Really? I'm having fun now. Smile

Goldenshield · Thu May 07, 2009 11:08 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 13):
For airfields where the ground sweeps away at the end of the runway, rad alt isn't as reliable as pressure alt, as rad alt may show rate increasing due to lowering terrain, not due to a climb.

Last I checked, the VSI in conjunction with the altimeter was used to verify a positive rate of climb. I mean that IS their job after all (along with verifying descent rate.)

I'm not sure where you got the Rad Alt. I never mentioned it in my post.

[Edited 2009-05-07 04:16:20]

peterpuck · Thu May 07, 2009 2:35 pm

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 13):
For airfields where the ground sweeps away at the end of the runway, rad alt isn't as reliable as pressure alt, as rad alt may show rate increasing due to lowering terrain, not due to a climb.

As well, due to the position of the rad alt antenna and large size of transport category aircraft, the rad alt can show a climb with the wheels still on the ground. A cross check between the baro and rad alt's confirm a "positive climb"

readytotaxi · Thu May 07, 2009 3:20 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
Really? I'm having fun now

So does that mean we can have a "Positive Stall" ?

sq_ek_freak · Thu May 07, 2009 3:38 pm

Quoting RichM (Thread starter):
Shortly after rotation, airline pilots usually say "Positive climb, gear up". With that in mind, what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point?

Well there are a couple of (former) Emirates pilots who might be able to answer your question... duck

Jetlagged · Thu May 07, 2009 4:09 pm

Quoting RichM (Thread starter):
Shortly after rotation, airline pilots usually say "Positive climb, gear up". With that in mind, what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point? (stall)

If there wasn't positive rate of climb they wouldn't say anything (about the gear anyway).

As has been pointed out above, it's not one phrase but two.

PNF: "positive rate"
PF: "gear up"
(PNF then selects gear up)

"Positve rate" and "positive climb" are different abrievations of the same thing in full "positive rate of climb".

ThrottleHold · Thu May 07, 2009 5:01 pm

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
As has been pointed out above, it's not one phrase but two.

PNF: "positive rate"
PF: "gear up"
(PNF then selects gear up)

Depends on the company. In our SOP's, the PF calls "Positive climb, gear up".

pilotpip · Thu May 07, 2009 5:02 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 9):
Not to nit-pick, but the phrase is "Positive rate, gear up."

Not to nit-pick, but my first regional gig used "positive climb". I know of at least a couple US airlines that use that versus "positive rate".

Goldenshield · Thu May 07, 2009 5:15 pm

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 20):
Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
As has been pointed out above, it's not one phrase but two.

PNF: "positive rate"
PF: "gear up"
(PNF then selects gear up)

Depends on the company. In our SOP's, the PF calls "Positive climb, gear up".

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 21):
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 9):
Not to nit-pick, but the phrase is "Positive rate, gear up."

Not to nit-pick, but my first regional gig used "positive climb". I know of at least a couple US airlines that use that versus "positive rate".

It's pretty sad when we all start arguing over the proper way to convey the exact same message, but what would hanger flying be without it? airplane

Of course, I think we've strayed far too off-topic now. Big grin

As far as the original question, I'd have to agree with IAHFLYR (reply 2). In fact, there's an interesting case study on that, being TWA 843, which aborted takeoff AFTER rotation.

pilotpip · Thu May 07, 2009 5:24 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 22):
It's pretty sad when we all start arguing over the proper way to convey the exact same message, but what would hanger flying be without it? Of course, I think we've strayed far too off-topic now.

Agree 100%. I just hate it when people get on here and act like the final authority on this. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing in aviation.

tb727 · Thu May 07, 2009 11:31 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 23):
Agree 100%. I just hate it when people get on here and act like the final authority on this. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing in aviation.

I vote we should just yell "Giddy-up!" instead. lol

Phoenix9 · Thu May 07, 2009 11:43 pm

Quoting RichM (Thread starter):
what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point? (stall)

Either "Geronimo" or "Wheeeeeeeee"

kimberlyRJ · Fri May 08, 2009 9:18 am

I think a command for ‘Brace’ would be given to the cabin – that I know for sure (if the aircraft was going to make contact with the ground)

Kimberly RJ

zappbrannigan · Fri May 08, 2009 9:51 am

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 26):
I think a command for ‘Brace’ would be given to the cabin – that I know for sure (if the aircraft was going to make contact with the ground)

They'd want to be quick if they hadn't established a rate of climb at the normal gear retraction point Smile

donniecs · Fri May 08, 2009 3:27 pm

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 8):
If you truly didn't have positive rate, you would just pitch for V2 and hope she climbs eventually!

+1 and confirm flap position if you get a chance.

DocLightning · Fri May 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 11):

Still, using RATE makes more sense than CLIMB, because RATE is states velocity, while CLIMB inherently states that something is increasing. So "positive climb" is really just "positive positive". Otherwise, you might as call descent as "negative climb."

Well, this thread brought out the pedant in all of us, huh?

"Positive climb" means "yes, we're climbing." "Negative climb" could either mean "we're descending" or it could mean "No, we're not climbing."

In all reality, it would probably be...

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
a few words which will get the famous "expletive" on the accident report when transcribing the CVR..

...followed, unfortunately, but a loud noise and then silence.

Mastropiero · Fri May 08, 2009 11:02 pm

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 25):
what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point? (stall)

Either "Geronimo" or "Wheeeeeeeee"

Lol.... This just made my night.... laughing

Markhkg · Sun May 10, 2009 5:35 am

The "third pilot" might be shouting,
"WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP"
or
"DON'T SINK"

Smile

brons2 · Sun May 10, 2009 9:01 am

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 24):
I vote we should just yell "Giddy-up!" instead. lol

how about yee haw!!

DingDong · Sun May 10, 2009 11:49 am

Quoting Markhkg (Reply 31):
The "third pilot" might be shouting,
"WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP"
or
"DON'T SINK"

There's a secret annunciation mode... if a positive rate of climb is not established, it will call out 'RETARD RETARD', and in this particular situation, it's not talking about the throttles, either. Big grin

OK, I'm just kidding. Yeah, if that situation (not climbing past rotation) happened, it would be some pretty intense and quick troubleshooting on the spot, for obvious reasons.

Max777geek · Mon May 11, 2009 2:15 pm

Quoting RichM (Thread starter):
Shortly after rotation, airline pilots usually say "Positive climb, gear up". With that in mind, what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point? (stall)

their last two words, probably. The first is "Holy".

SEPilot · Mon May 11, 2009 3:38 pm

There is a novel, "Left Seat", by Robert Serling that told a story about how this requirement came about. I don't know if it is true or not, but it does sound authentic. It seems that the DC-7 was notoriously lethargic when trying to do a go-around, and one once tried it and clipped the prop tips before finally getting enough airspeed to climb. The CAB investigating this incident decided to add the requirement to verify positive rate of climb before raising the gear.

borism · Thu May 21, 2009 8:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
...followed, unfortunately, but a loud noise and then silence.

What if aircraft does lift off the ground but rate of climb 0 is maintained afterwards? Granted there are no terrain, plant or artificial obstacles in the flight path, there's no reason it should crash (well, besides birds). It will continue to fly on ground effect and gain speed and gear retraction is fully justified. It isn't standard operating procedure, but it is totally considerable scenario.

SEPilot brings great piece of history into this discussion, in that positive rate of climb is important to the slow-climbing low wing prop aircraft that might clip props to the ground after gear retraction if it's not established.

Mastropiero · Thu May 21, 2009 9:55 pm

Quoting Borism (Reply 36):

What if aircraft does lift off the ground but rate of climb 0 is maintained afterwards? Granted there are no terrain, plant or artificial obstacles in the flight path, there's no reason it should crash (well, besides birds). It will continue to fly on ground effect and gain speed and gear retraction is fully justified. It isn't standard operating procedure, but it is totally considerable scenario.

Something like this, perhaps?

tb727 · Fri May 22, 2009 12:47 am

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 37):
Something like this, perhaps?

I've seen better Wink

calpilot · Fri May 22, 2009 9:25 pm

Richm, don't know if you still are looking for the answer after 38 replies of BS, but

The callout is;

"don't sink"

draigonair · Fri May 22, 2009 10:21 pm

KLM SOP's: PNF: postive rate of climb PF: gear up.
Offcourse with a sink you dont raise the gear! If after take off you do get a sink (maybe windshear) i would suggest max thrust!

cheers!

Nick

metroliner · Sun May 24, 2009 6:37 pm

Quoting DRAIGONAIR (Reply 40):
KLM SOP's: PNF: postive rate of climb PF: gear up.

I've never heard or used 'positive rate / climb, gear up'. It's always been 'Positive rate of climb, gear up'...

Brevity is wit! Smile

cptspeaking · Mon May 25, 2009 4:51 am

Quoting RichM (Thread starter):
Shortly after rotation, airline pilots usually say "Positive climb, gear up". With that in mind, what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point?

Nothing. You wait until there is a positive rate of climb! Smile

Otherwise: aviate, navigate, communicate!

flaps30 · Mon May 25, 2009 5:51 am

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 25):
what do they say/do if there isn't a positive climb at this point? (stall)

a few Hail Mary's

SEPilot · Mon May 25, 2009 2:55 pm

Quoting Flaps30 (Reply 43):
a few Hail Mary's

Another book I read some time ago by an airline pilot said that the most frequent last words on cockpit voice recorders is "Oh, sh*t!" This might be an appropriate place for that.

YYZYYT · Mon May 25, 2009 5:53 pm

I am assuming that the thread was prompted by the recent BA / JNB incident...

I just skimmed that thread again, and can see no mention of whether the pilots put the gear up while they flew level and accelerated. Does anyone recall?

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net