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contrails67
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:01 am

Are there any videos showing how pilots rotate planes on the tarmac? Although I know it involves the use of pedals, I have never seen it in action nor in the aviation videos I have.
 
swiftski
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:47 am

Quoting contrails67 (Thread starter):
Are there any videos showing how pilots rotate planes on the tarmac? Although I know it involves the use of pedals, I have never seen it in action nor in the aviation videos I have.

I don't really understand what you are asking. Are you just looking for videos of rotation? From outside or inside?
 
HaveBlue
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:59 am

swiftski think he's asking about how they steer on the tarmac, as opposed to what we normally call 'rotation' at lift off. You don't use the pedals much in take off rotation unless in a high performance single prop (normally) and a little less for light singles, so I think he means steering the plane around.
 
swiftski
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:13 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 2):
swiftski think he's asking about how they steer on the tarmac, as opposed to what we normally call 'rotation' at lift off. You don't use the pedals much in take off rotation unless in a high performance single prop (normally) and a little less for light singles, so I think he means steering the plane around.

So.. As a general rule in a single engine aircraft in nill wind you need to use Right Rudder to stay straight on the centre line. In a very strong crosswind you may need left rudder. Having said that, it is continual use of both rudder pedals that keeps you straight in reality, and it is very intuitive after a while.

It's not called Rotation though.

In a twin - as a general rule less rudder is required.

In a higher performance twin you are able to get to reasonably high speeds before the rudder comes into effect - before that point you use the nosewheel steering to keep you on the centreline.
 
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Zkpilot
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:04 am

Guys I think he is talking about steering the aircraft on the tarmac... using the tiller

To answer your question on commercial jets the rudder peddles have brakes on them which is used... the actual steering is done by a steering tiller located beside the pilots by the window.

During takeoff and landing however the rudder is used as it becomes effective with the airflow over it.

In light aircraft (GA) the rudders are used to steer the aircraft on the ground.
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flybaurlax
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:09 am

On the ramp and taxiways you use the tiller in airliners. The only time the pedals are used is for breaking. Differential breaking is not recommended for steering in most cases. The tiller controls the nose wheel only, no rudder. On most aircraft the tiller is located on the captain's side, but I believe that is a customer option until the 787 came along (for Boeing a/c at least). I don't know what it's like with Airbus. The -87 is standard to have the tiller on both sides. So even if it's the FO's leg of the trip, the captain still has control of the aircraft until the a/c is lined up on the runway for takeoff, or the plane is slowed down enough after landing for the tiller to be used, then the captain takes over.
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HaveBlue
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:11 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 4):
Guys I think he is talking about steering the aircraft on the tarmac... using the tiller

That's what I said.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 4):
In light aircraft (GA) the rudders are used to steer the aircraft on the ground

Not in the light airplanes I've flown, its differential braking that's doing the steering.
 
swiftski
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:13 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 6):
Not in the light airplanes I've flown, its differential braking that's doing the steering.

Diff braking, direct linkage, rudder.. there are a few ways.
 
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jetmech
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:06 am

Quoting contrails67 (Thread starter):

This video shows how the steering actuators rotate the nose wheels on a 747.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BELii...CFBE1ED690F2015&playnext=1&index=9

The two actuators act in a "push / pull" manner upon the steering collar, which acts upon the torsion links to rotate the axle. A similar setup is used on many other Boeings and Airbus.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l118/Jet-Mech/NLG1.jpg


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HAL
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:32 am

Quoting flybaurlax (Reply 5):
The only time the pedals are used is for breaking. Differential breaking is not recommended for steering in most cases.

Wow, I hope I dont 'break' the plane the next time I use the pedals. That would get expensive really quick. Howver if I was interested in braking the aircraft to a stop, I'd use the toe brakes.  

HAL
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ThrottleHold
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:13 pm

Quoting flybaurlax (Reply 5):

I've flown 6 different commercial jet types, both Airbus and Boeing wide and narrow bodies. Only the 737 didn't have a tiller on the F/O's side, all the others had it on both sides. A tiller on the F/O's side is standard on all Airbus aircraft.

Rudder pedals are also used during taxi, usually if maintaining the centreline on a long straight stretch. It is easier to do than with the tiller, especially on some Boeing aircraft where it is not as easy to make small inputs because of the tiller design. I have always found the small, steer-by-wire design of the Airbus tiller much easier to use.
 
contrails67
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:43 pm

Sorry guys, I should have stated how to "steer" a plane on the tarmac.
 
flybaurlax
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Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:03 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 9):

Wow, I hope I dont 'break' the plane the next time I use the pedals. That would get expensive really quick. Howver if I was interested in braking the aircraft to a stop, I'd use the toe brakes.

Lol thanks I didn't sell check. I was tired. I normally am a stickler for spell checking.

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 10):
Only the 737 didn't have a tiller on the F/O's side, all the others had it on both sides.

Thanks. I only have time in the 737 sim and jumpseated in the 737, so it's the only a/c I can really talk about.
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DashTrash
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:28 pm

Guys, most large aircraft have limited steering through the rudder pedals. Like has been said, that's what you'll usually use when tracking the taxiway centerline. When more nosewheel caster is needed, we use the tiller.

On takeoff, we line up using the tiller, then hold the centerline on the roll with rudder (augmented by the nosewheel steering until rotation). On the landing roll, it is the same in reverse. We use rudder to hold the centerline until we're ready to turn off the runway, then it's back on the tiller for the tighter turn offs. Ailerons also play an active role as speed builds on takeoff in tracking the centerline along with the rudder. Same on landing until they are no longer effective.

Differential thrust / power as well as differential braking are also available to use. In some aircraft the nosewheel steering is MEL'able, so when it's inop you steer with differential power and braking. Makes you look like a drunk if you're not used to it. There were also airliners with a free-castering nosewheel where differential power and braking is your only method of steering until the rudder has enough airflow over it.
 
etherealsky
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:54 am

Quoting flybaurlax (Reply 12):
Lol thanks I didn't sell check.

   That's okay as long as you still remember to buy check   

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 4):
In light aircraft (GA) the rudders are used to steer the aircraft on the ground.
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 6):
Not in the light airplanes I've flown, its differential braking that's doing the steering.

Of course it depends whether you're flying a tailwheel (or have a freely-castering nosewheel like on a DA-20) or whether you've got tricycle gear with nosewheel steering.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 13):
There were also airliners with a free-castering nosewheel where differential power and braking is your only method of steering until the rudder has enough airflow over it.

Interesting, which ones were those?
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
DashTrash
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:59 am

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 14):
Interesting, which ones were those?

I think it was an option on the 1900, and the J-Balls all caster. We could MEL the steering on the Dash 8. I've never heard of a steerable tailwheel on large taildraggers either (doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
 
flybaurlax
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:08 pm

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 14):
That's okay as long as you still remember to buy check

Ok I read this many times before I posted now. I can't believe I let that slip! I feel so embarrassed haha.
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Zkpilot
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:41 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 6):


Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 4):
In light aircraft (GA) the rudders are used to steer the aircraft on the ground

Not in the light airplanes I've flown, its differential braking that's doing the steering.

That should have said rudder pedals... most tricycle GA aircraft have a direct linkage between the rudder pedals and the nose wheel. The rudder itself also moves obviously so when taxiing it can help to steer a little as GA aircraft are so light.
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SP90
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:44 am

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 10):
Rudder pedals are also used during taxi, usually if maintaining the centreline on a long straight stretch. It is easier to do than with the tiller, especially on some Boeing aircraft where it is not as easy to make small inputs because of the tiller design. I have always found the small, steer-by-wire design of the Airbus tiller much easier to use.
Quoting HAL (Reply 9):
Wow, I hope I dont 'break' the plane the next time I use the pedals. That would get expensive really quick. Howver if I was interested in braking the aircraft to a stop, I'd use the toe brakes.  

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the rudder pedals serves as both brake pedals and provide small steering input. So when your step on the rudder pedals to steer do you also activate the brakes on that side a little? Is it actually using differential braking to give you that small amount of steering or is it actually sending inputs to the steering actuator on the nose gear to turn a little?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:04 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 6):
Not in the light airplanes I've flown, its differential braking that's doing the steering.

Those are in the minority. All your garden variety Cessnas, Pipers and Mooneys actually do have a linkage between the pedals and the nose wheel.

Off the top of my head, the only modern GA plane that uses differential braking is the Cirrus. The Diamonds may use it too, not sure though cuz I've never flown one.

Quoting sp90 (Reply 18):
So when your step on the rudder pedals to steer do you also activate the brakes on that side a little?


No. There's two parts to almost all airplane pedals. The top part actually can be depressed, somewhat similarly to a car's brake pedals, and that top half actuates the brakes only.

EDIT: Added some pedals for clarification



These are a mock up for a sim but that's basically what the 737's pedals look like. So, for rudder control only, you press the ball of your foot on the bottom portion of the pedal only (the bottom ridged horizontal bar of the pedal) That moves the whole pedal back and forth (you push right, you go right). To actuate the brakes, you rest your whole foot on the pedal, and tilt your foot so as to tilt the pedal as well, which will actuate the brakes. You can simultaneously push and tilt the pedals so as to give nose steering and differential braking at the same time. Hope this made sense.

IIRC from my 737 class, pressing on the pedals alone (not the brake portion) will give 7 degrees of nose steering on either direction. Almost all airliners do this. For any more nose steering you will need the tiller.

Quoting sp90 (Reply 18):
actually sending inputs to the steering actuator on the nose gear to turn a little?

This ^

[Edited 2010-09-08 18:20:10]

[Edited 2010-09-08 18:20:57]
 
474218
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RE: Videos Of Planes Steering On The Tarmac

Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:09 am

Most large aircraft follow a schedule similar to this:

o At slow speed such as taxiing the tiller/tillers are used for directional control.

o At the beginning of takeoff the rudder peddles are used for directional control.

o As the speed increases during takeoff roll the rudder peddles still provide directional control but now it comes through the rudder, in lieu of the nose gear tires.

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