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blink182
Topic Author
Posts: 5370
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

Longhaul Simulation/Endurance Training?

Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:51 am

In light of recent postings of longhaul and ULH flights in some of the other forums, I have a question--

When pilots of aircraft that operate predominately on longhaul flights(eg, 757, 767,747,777,M11,330,340,380 etc.) train in simulators, do they undergo training that mocks lengthy stage lengths with relief crew members in the simulator? Will crews begin training at odd times(eg. 11pm) to mock odd departure times they may encounter, or compensate for time adjustments at outstations?

Are there differing ways that airlines train their crews on longhaul vs. shorthaul?

Thanks for any replies.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Longhaul Simulation/Endurance Training?

Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting blink182 (Thread starter):
do they undergo training that mocks lengthy stage lengths with relief crew members in the simulator?

I have never seen this: simulators cost too much and sim time is too valuable to have pilots practicing long boring phases of flight in them, especially when they will get multiple crossings with a Check Airman before being released to the line. There ARE longhaul specific procedures trained (track diverts, ETOPS stuff, driftdown, etc.) but it's generally a matter of doing that maneuver and then repositioning to wherever you are going to do the next maneuver at. The the difficult maneuvers generally don't happen at cruise, so they are less emphasized in the sim. In recent years many LOFT-type evaluations for longhaul do look at enroute scenarios, but I have never seen a relief pilot in there nor are oceanic legs generally flown in real time.

Quoting blink182 (Thread starter):
Will crews begin training at odd times(eg. 11pm) to mock odd departure times they may encounter, or compensate for time adjustments at outstations?

Well the sims start around the clock most places (with a couple of hours down for maintenance in the extremely early hours.) Again this isn't a circadian rhythm adaptation experiment, it's because the airlines want to maximize the use of their sims and own as few of them as possible.

Quoting blink182 (Thread starter):
Are there differing ways that airlines train their crews on longhaul vs. shorthaul?

There are some specific maneuvers germane only to longhaul flying (I don't do track diverts on the A-320, but I did practice them on the B-767 for instance.) The vast majority of sim training is VERY similar. V1 cuts, RTO, CRM exercises, approach work, flap malfunctions, etc., etc.

Hope this helps.
 
wilco737
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Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Longhaul Simulation/Endurance Training?

Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:38 am

In the simulator you do not train the normal duties, the normal operations. The simulator is there to train all the emergency situations. Engine failures/ fires, hydraulic problems, electrical issues etc etc etc. You don't need the relief pilot for that. it is CP and FO. Even on long haul flights at many times only 2 pilots sit in the cockpit and do their jobs. If something goes wrong they have to react and handle according to the procedures. Sure, you call the other guys for assistance if needed.
Our sim sessions start between 6am and 7pm, so latest you are done is 11pm. Sometimes there are missions at night as well, but only in rare cases and then no sim checks.

Quoting blink182 (Thread starter):
Are there differing ways that airlines train their crews on longhaul vs. shorthaul?

We don't have any difference. It is all about the airplane type you are flying and what has to be trained in a sim check.
Of course you have to observe different things on long haul flights. More passengers, less diversion airports etc. But the training itself is not really different. You need to know how to handly your airplane in an emergency situation.

wilco737
  
 
lowrider
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RE: Longhaul Simulation/Endurance Training?

Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:33 am

Quoting blink182 (Thread starter):
Will crews begin training at odd times

The sims we use run 20 hours a day. They are only down between 2am ti 6am. So the earliest we can report for a sim is 5 am and the latest is 9 pm. While that pretty closely approximates real world report times, it is only because for the sake of efficiency and has nothing to do with training.

Quoting blink182 (Thread starter):
Are there differing ways that airlines train their crews on longhaul vs. shorthaul

Most of the differences are taught in the class room. Oceanic procedures, international diversions, hazmat, weather reporting, communications, procedural differences, and international flight planning are some of the topics covered.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Longhaul Simulation/Endurance Training?

Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:41 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 2):
Our sim sessions start between 6am and 7pm, so latest you are done is 11pm.

Wow. Nice! I have routinely gone to 0200 and occasionally to 0400. Believe me, I'm not bragging!  
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Longhaul Simulation/Endurance Training?

Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:22 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
Wow. Nice! I have routinely gone to 0200 and occasionally to 0400. Believe me, I'm not bragging!  

Nobody wants to go into the simulator at 2 am... And I don't think it doesn't make much sense. Just to "simulate" that you are tired is not the goal of a simulator mission. You should be awake to get all the attnetion and learn as much as possible. And when you did good training when you were wide awake, you can do it as well when tired as it is somewhat 'normal' to you.
Sure there are always things which cannot be trained in the simulator.
And of course it would be better to be always wide awake in the cockpit, but we all know that's not gonna happen. Departure times and jetlag simply make it impossible.

wilco737
  
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Longhaul Simulation/Endurance Training?

Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 5):
And of course it would be better to be always wide awake in the cockpit, but we all know that's not gonna happen. Departure times and jetlag simply make it impossible.

You've got that right!

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 5):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
Wow. Nice! I have routinely gone to 0200 and occasionally to 0400. Believe me, I'm not bragging!

Nobody wants to go into the simulator at 2 am

No they don't and I've never started at 0200, but have finished as late as 0400 on numerous occasions. If I do that I want to keep going that way for the training as it's just too gross to flip back around to an earlier period. Better yet, I'd rather have the early periods to start with!  

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