LY777
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Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:33 pm

I was wondering why there are black stripes on 77W wings.


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Your thoughts?

[Edited 2014-02-19 17:47:13 by SA7700]
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kaitak
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:40 pm

Possibilities:
- Don't stand beyond this line
- Don't stand closer than this line (if you're testing the overwing exit slide)
- Something to do with maintenance?
 
etops1
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:51 pm

I believe it has to do with the emergency exit . Letting passengers know not to go beyond the black line maybe ?
 
AR385
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:06 pm

It has to do with transparent ice formations. At least on the MD-80 that´s what they were for after that MD-80 from SAS that crash landed off Arlanda. With those stripes it can be seen.
 
speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:07 pm

I believe it has to do with indicating where the MLG is on the cockpit camera displays in low vis operations... the high-contrast shows up...
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NYCAAer
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:34 pm

Speedbird128 is correct, pilots I fly with on the 77W told me about them a year ago when we first got them at AA.
 
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malaysia
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:41 pm

I remember TWA having it on almost all their types on the wings.
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hivue
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 4):
I believe it has to do with indicating where the MLG is on the cockpit camera disp

What, the outside edges of the MLG wheels? A camera on the tail? For taxiing?
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trnswrld
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:46 pm

Yeah TWA had "racing stripes" on all their planes. I was told it was for ice detection. That's just TWA's planes not these triple sevens. Apparently the reasoning behind those was already confirmed above.
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:11 am

Do the pilots get to watch a different camera to the rest of us? On my recent CX flights on the 77W, the camera was under the belly of the aircraft so we could see the NLG. And the aircraft had the black stripes on the wing.
 
777STL
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 7):
What, the outside edges of the MLG wheels? A camera on the tail? For taxiing?

The 77W has a camera in the tail to aid with taxiing. The lines on the wings indicate to the pilot where the MLG is in relation to the taxiway, which they can then see via the camera.
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Tango-Bravo
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting 777stl (Reply 10):
The 77W has a camera in the tail to aid with taxiing. The lines on the wings indicate to the pilot where the MLG is in relation to the taxiway

So perhaps the black stripes serve a dual purpose...ice detection and pilots' point of reference for taxiing? The latter makes perfect sense inasmuch as 777-300s are longer than a 747...in addition to having a massive wingspan. At the same time, the stripes look like ice detection strips seen on other aircraft types - if the operating airline chooses to apply them.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:42 am

Here are two up close and personal photos:

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Photo © Tim Bowrey - Sydney Spotters


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Photo © Benny Zheng



And looking through the database I see that many 777's don't have the markings. Also the markings appear to be in combination with the overwing exit markings.

Tugg
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Qantas744er
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:13 am

As already mentioned above, the stripes offer a high contrast background to indicate the outer wheel position of both MLGs. Specifically under low ambient lighting operations, when the MLGs may not be visible.

The camera on the belly shows the NLG. And a camera in the leading edge of both the left and right horizontal stabilizers, provide the feed to the MLGs. There is a also a light which can be switched on and off to illuminate the area around the MLGs during taxiing.

Cool fact? The cameras automatically compensate for the position of the horizontal stab and maintain the same view to the MLG under all stabilizer trim angles.
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LTC8K6
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:59 am

You can pretty clearly see that they are related to the MLG in the camera shots.
 
speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:19 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 7):
What, the outside edges of the MLG wheels? A camera on the tail? For taxiing?

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Pilots have different cameras to the ones providing the IFE views. There are 2 in the horizontal stabs and they show the position of the (outer wheels of the) MLG.

In low visibility conditions, or when a light down there is inop, the high-contrast stripe on the wing is representative of the outer set of the wheels of the MLG, so the crew can safely manoeuvre.

IIRC, there were some aircraft from the 744 and 772 fleets of either JAL or ANA that had these retrofitted, and you will see the same stripe on the upper wing surface in these cases too.
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zkojq
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:30 am

It seems silly to go to all the effort of painting that strip on the wing. On the A380 (and presumably subsequent models fitted with the taxicam) Airbus just uses two magenta lines to indicate where the gear truck is.

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speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:41 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 16):
On the A380

But, it's not an A380 (or A340-600 either for that matter, which also has the magenta bracketing), and way back when, Boeing decided this route was the route for their models.

Maybe the 777X will have an updated concept...

My car has it too when I reverse, it has lines to indicate where the wheels and mirrors will go - it cannot be that hard to program...
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CX Flyboy
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:41 am

It is indeed to aid with taxying. Perhaps Boeing envisaged that airlines would fly the 777 into airports where 180 degree turns would need to be done at dark airports at night and hence the stripe would be useful. I have had to do 180 degree turns quite a few times on a very dark runway. The stripe does come in handy
 
SA7700
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:26 pm

Here is an example of the T7:


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Quite an impressive view of the engines from behind - I love it!  


Regards,

SA7700
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Yakflyer
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:09 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 19):
Quite an impressive view of the engines from behind - I love it!

It's even handy to see if you're making contrails too!
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:40 pm

External cameras on 777! Who knew? The pilots have these cool images and the views aren't available to us passengers? Not very fair, I think.  
 
musang
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:54 pm

"So perhaps the black stripes serve a dual purpose.."

The ice stripes wrap over the leading edges. The 777 stripes (and I've learnt something new today) seem to start a few feet aft. On some types, the ice stripe was designed to be visible from the flight deck ( and on some types it required the DV window to be opened I suspect). I believe Fokker jets have/had them also.

Regards - musang
 
hivue
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 16):
It seems silly to go to all the effort of painting that strip on the wing. On the A380 (and presumably subsequent models fitted with the taxicam) Airbus just uses two magenta lines to indicate where the gear truck is.

Strikes me as an example of A vs B philosophy. Boeing wants to see some good solid hardware while Airbus just says let the computer take care of it.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:57 am

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/wongjst/HND-NRT-Apr09/IMG_0757.jpg

Guidance to the crew to know where the MLG is while taxying when viewed through the Aircraft exterior mounted cameras.
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LY777
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:43 pm

Thanks for all the replies, that's very informative!
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speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
And looking through the database I see that many 777's don't have the marking

Hi Tugg. As far as I am aware, it's only the 77W (and possibly the 773) that has it as standard...

The 748/F don't have the lines and so I would hazard a guess they went the route of magenta lines a-la airbus...

Here is a 77E of JAL with the lines - one of their retrofitted machines.


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Photo © Triple Tree



Not sure if its an option on the 77L/F, but this AeroLogic doesn't have it...


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Photo © Alevik



SQ 773 non ER with the lines...


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Photo © Jason Wood



CX 773 non ER with the lines


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Photo © Edward Zhu



JAL B744 with the lines...

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Photo © Darren Howie - Vortex Aviation Photography



JAL B74D with the lines...

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Photo © Kazuchika Naya



748f - no lines

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Photo © Bernie Leighton
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Photo © Alevik

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7BOEING7
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:50 pm

Only the 773 and 77W have the ground maneuvering cameras installed as standard equipment -- the system is not required for dispatch. During normal operations at most airports you don't need the cameras but for turns over 90 degrees or to/from smaller than normal taxiways it allows you to make sure you're staying on the hard stuff and not taking out any lights.It is not optional/necessary on other Boeing airplanes.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting Yakflyer (Reply 20):
It's even handy to see if you're making contrails too!

Of if you remembered to turn on the chemtrails generators.     
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 27):
have the ground maneuvering cameras installed as standard equipment

And the 748? Being the longest sausage around I am sure there is a taxi aid of sorts...

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 27):
It is not optional/necessary on other Boeing airplanes.

JAL had it retrofitted on to 744. Not sure who did it...
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LH707330
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:48 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 29):
And the 748? Being the longest sausage around I am sure there is a taxi aid of sorts...

It may be the longest, but IIRC the 346 still has a longer wheelbase.
 
speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 30):

Thanks for that, but how does the wheelbase compare to the 77W? I cannot find any wheelbase data on boeing.com...
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7BOEING7
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 31):
Thanks for that, but how does the wheelbase compare to the 77W? I cannot find any wheelbase data on boeing.com...

A 772 is 84'11', a 773 is 102' 5", a 744 is 89' 5.5" so a 748 which is 19' longer would be about 99' +/- which is still shorter than the 773.
 
LH707330
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 32):
A 772 is 84'11', a 773 is 102' 5", a 744 is 89' 5.5" so a 748 which is 19' longer would be about 99' +/- which is still shorter than the 773.

I think the 748 is a +8/+3 frame stretch over the 744, meaning that the wheelbase goes up 8 frames (@20" per frame this works out to 160" or 13' 4") for a total of 102' 9.5", so almost the exact same as the 77W. The question is, is this wheelbase to the aft gear legs or the forward ones? Recall that the 747 body/aft MLGs pivot, so the wheelbase to the set around which the plane rotates, i.e. the forward/wing MLG, is the one we care about here. Either way, it's a pretty big plane, so it would make sense to have the taxi-cams.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:43 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 33):
The question is, is this wheelbase to the aft gear legs or the forward ones?

Center of nose gear to center (between the wheels) of body gear -- so you can probably subtract 6 or 7 feet. Also for a 180 degree runway turn a 77W takes 185.5' and a 744 tales 153' -- 748 a little more but still a lot less than a 773.


Here's a better answer, looks like its 92' 3.5" from nose gear to wing gear which makes it about 10' less than a 77W. Here is everything you wanted to know about 748 airport planning characteristics:
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/747_8.pdf

[Edited 2014-02-21 15:56:38]

[Edited 2014-02-21 15:57:47]
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 23):
Quoting zkojq (Reply 16):
It seems silly to go to all the effort of painting that strip on the wing. On the A380 (and presumably subsequent models fitted with the taxicam) Airbus just uses two magenta lines to indicate where the gear truck is.

Strikes me as an example of A vs B philosophy. Boeing wants to see some good solid hardware while Airbus just says let the computer take care of it.

Perhaps, but given the fact that the 777 is a good 15 years older than the 380, it might just be a question of what solution was simpler at the time.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 29):

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 27):
have the ground maneuvering cameras installed as standard equipment

And the 748? Being the longest sausage around I am sure there is a taxi aid of sorts...

Ok, so not about the 748 but meet "Wadell's Wagon", built by Boeing to train crews in taxiing the 747. Turns out it wasn't needed but an interesting bit of history.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Viscount724
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 31):
I cannot find any wheelbase data on boeing.com...

Wheelbase is shown for all Boeing types in the diagrams in the "Aircraft description" documents. Cllick the type and then "Aircraft description" and scroll down to the drawings.
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/airports/plan_manuals.page
 
speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:53 am

Thank you for the info - I must have been seeing crossed eyed after my night shift...

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 35):
Perhaps, but given the fact that the 777 is a good 15 years older than the 380, it might just be a question of what solution was simpler at the time.

But didnt the A346 have it first in the airbus range..? Quite some time before the A380.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 35):
Ok, so not about the 748 but meet "Wadell's Wagon", built by Boeing to train crews in taxiing the 747. Turns out it wasn't needed but an interesting bit of history.

Very cool!

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 32):
Quoting LH707330 (Reply 33):

Many thanks also for your input, I am also learning stuff here!

The B747-8 has a wheelbase only some 7 feet less than the A380-800. But as far as I can research it does not have a taxi camera system. One would have thought anything usefull would be fitted... especially on long sausages but hey... what works works... There is no replacement for good judgement...   
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Starlionblue
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:12 am

=Speedbird128,reply=37]Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 35):
Perhaps, but given the fact that the 777 is a good 15 years older than the 380, it might just be a question of what solution was simpler at the time.

But didnt the A346 have it first in the airbus range..? Quite some time before the A380.[/quote]

Please don't come and ruin my lovely theory with some mundane data that contradicts it. 

Jokes aside, the 346 is still much younger than the 777. In any case methinks that the answer is perhaps not so complex. Both answers (lines in camera system or on the wing) are pretty obvious and easy to implement. Could be a toss of the coin.
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speedbird128
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RE: Black Stripes On 77W Wings

Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:31 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 38):
Jokes aside, the 346 is still much younger than the 777.

Yes sure, the 773 was the first with the taxi cameras in 1998, no? Then they upgraded it midway, around when the 77W was launched/produced...

The A346 was 2002.

obviously the high-contrast stripe works, and the magenta lines work for airbus. Same result. Don't squish runway lights or taxi into the green stuff LOL.
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