Vimanav
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Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:51 pm

Hi All

is it possible to reuse the fuel if it is defuelled from one aircraft, in another? Are there any regulations barring this? Any inputs would be highly welcome.

brgds//Vimanav
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FlyHossD
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:00 pm

I've asked that same question before and was told it wasn't usable and therefore was burned from time to time by the airport fire fighting station. That was many years ago, so I'm not sure if it's still true.
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Vimanav
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:07 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 1):
I've asked that same question before and was told it wasn't usable and therefore was burned from time to time by the airport fire fighting station. That was many years ago, so I'm not sure if it's still true.

so is there an ICAO regulation that debars reusing ATF? Or from any other body?

brgds//Vimanav
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:38 pm

We are allowed to reuse offloaded fuel. We have a section in our fuel manual that explains the rules. But if an aircraft had Jet A1 on board, and there is no suspicion about the quality, then that fuel can be offloaded into a tanker and then fuelled into another of our aircraft. If Jet A is on board it is OK , but with different rules (we are in Europe). But if some other fuel is there like Russian or Chinese etc, then the fuel is disposed of.
Also if the offloaded volume of fuel is less than 10pc of the tanker volume, it may be accepted by the fuel company.
Every case is different, but it usually allowed. We defuel aircraft going into major checks all the time, and this fuel is pumped back onto another aircraft.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 3):
We are allowed to reuse offloaded fuel. We have a section in our fuel manual that explains the rules. But if an aircraft had Jet A1 on board, and there is no suspicion about the quality, then that fuel can be offloaded into a tanker and then fuelled into another of our aircraft.

Agreed. I've defueled both 100LL and JetA before directly from the aircraft and we reused the fuel. We typically towed the aircraft to a hardpoint near the maintenance hanger and let the A&Ps do it directly into a fuel truck.
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DocLightning
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:51 pm

So then the tanks are drained, but then it's ventilation/evaporation for the fuel still puddled in the nooks and crannies? How long until it usually evaporates given typical weather? Is the air blown in there warmed at all to speed evaporation?
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Horstroad
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
So then the tanks are drained, but then it's ventilation/evaporation for the fuel still puddled in the nooks and crannies? How long until it usually evaporates given typical weather? Is the air blown in there warmed at all to speed evaporation?

We suck up puddles with a vacuum or absorb it with cloths. The residues evaporate within hours, maybe even minutes.
Temperature combined with fuel vapors isn't a good idea. Ventilation sucks air out of the tanks rather than blowing it in anyways. Fresh air from around the open man holes gets sucked in due to the low air pressure in the tanks.

Drained fuel is reused for ground equipment like air start units after the water has been seperated. I'm not sure how we handle defueled fuel. When it is contaminated it is disposed of course. Sometimes it is burnt through the engines provided the contamination does no harm to the components.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:27 pm

Quoting Vimanav (Thread starter):
Hi All

is it possible to reuse the fuel if it is defuelled from one aircraft, in another? Are there any regulations barring this? Any inputs would be highly welcome.

brgds//Vimanav
Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 1):
I've asked that same question before and was told it wasn't usable and therefore was burned from time to time by the airport fire fighting station. That was many years ago, so I'm not sure if it's still true.

It is defueled and stored in fuel trucks, but it has to go back to the airline that defueled it. Usually goes back into the same aircraft. Do not want cross contamination or microbial growth contamination. Used to treat the fuel on the aircraft, think they treat the fuel at the fuel farms now.
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fr8mech
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:27 am

I'm not quite sure it is a regulation, but it tends to be standard practice through the industry. Every operator has a fueling manual. The fueling manual specifies the quality of fuel an operator can use. Of course this tends to be uniform across the industry, but there are minor variations.

Basically, an operator does not want to upload 'used' fuel into one of its aircraft, unless that fuel came off another one of its own aircraft.

I do know that very recently we had an aircraft go out of service for a fuel leak and there was not enough capacity in the other tanks to transfer fuel. We had to wait for another one of our aircraft to arrive the next day before the fueler would offload the affected aircraft. The fueler then fueled our outbound with the fuel taken off the broke jet. Of course, this delay pushed back our repair.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
So then the tanks are drained, but then it's ventilation/evaporation for the fuel still puddled in the nooks and crannies? How long until it usually evaporates given typical weather? Is the air blown in there warmed at all to speed evaporation?

The residual is vacuumed or absorbed and the negative ventilation is applied. You can make entry almost immediately, though air monitoring is constant. We keep air moving through the tank anytime there is someone in the tank. Of course, we are a line operation and we're rarely open more than a few hours at a time. I assume heavy maintenance facilities will eventually stop ventilation when the air quality reaches a consistent, safe level.
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Dalmd88
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:52 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
I assume heavy maintenance facilities will eventually stop ventilation when the air quality reaches a consistent, safe level.

Not if I have anything to do with the tank work. I don't care how low the levels are. There is at least one venturi blowing air across the tank that someone is going into. It simply makes it more comfortable to work in there. The guy is less likely to freak out if he is cool and gets stuck for a moment ( that includes myself ).
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:15 am

In the general sense. If Fuel is removed from for example a United airplane. The fueling company will only put it back into a United airplane. Only because the fuel has been paid for by United once it was pumped out of the truck, so United actually now owns that fuel.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):

Other than during maintenance we rarely defueled JetA burners at the FBO I worked at. In the summer if you were really worried about a dry tank in a recipricating engine aircraft you would get all the fuel out you could via sumps and hoses then leave the caps off. 100LL evaporates pretty fast in hot weather. Anyone refilling a truck in 100+ degree weather could get high if you didn't keep well away from the tank opening. It evaporates that fast.
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KELPkid
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:19 am

When I was working the line, unless the aircraft owner provided jerry cans (to reuse it themselves), the defueled fuel became fuel for airport vehicles. I even took some 100LL home and used it in the lawn mower at the apartment complex I lived at!

It is considered really bad practice to re-use fuel once it has been loaded on an aircraft.

Although, nowadays, I could see how leaded fuel would probably destroy catalytic converters and oxygen sensors...but Jet-A can be used on diesel powered ground equipment.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:56 am

Quoting Vimanav (Thread starter):
is it possible to reuse the fuel if it is defuelled from one aircraft, in another? Are there any regulations barring this? Any inputs would be highly welcome.

I'm not in the airline world, but in the general aviation training world we reuse fuel all the time. If we are overweight we'll just call the truck out and have them take some out of the tanks. Goes into the same truck that will refuel the next aircraft. We own our fuel trucks though, so it may be different than a third party fueler. This goes for 100LL and Jet A.
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nomadd22
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:19 am

The place I worked for would never resell fuel taken from an aircraft. They had strict standards for the fuel they sold, and those standards could no longer be guaranteed with fuel that had been in an aircraft tank and removed.
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musang
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:33 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 7):
It is defueled and stored in fuel trucks

Which sometimes presents a problem. At major airports the fuel comes up via hydrants, and the fuel suppliers don't have many tankers/bowsers. They will have some for remote, non-hydrant stands, but they won't want one sitting spare all the time just in case of a defuelling requirement. As mentioned, as soon as it contains offloaded fuel, its contaminated.

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Vimanav
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:09 pm

So what apart from the microbial growth in an aircraft fuel tanks can contaminate fuel so bad that it cannot be reused?

If the defuelled fuel is tested and found to be satisfactory why can it not be used again in another aircraft?

brgds//Vimanav
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 16):
If the defuelled fuel is tested and found to be satisfactory

There are many different types of Jet fuel.
In Europe we use Jet A1. In the USA they use Jet A. You can also see Jet B. These all have different densities and freeze points. We have rules for how much Jet A we can have on board for polar flights, We track how much is in the tanks. With recycled fuel you don't know.
Also many countries like China and Russia and other ex Soviet countries have their own fuel types. They are very similar, but different.
Jet fuel is not all the same.
 
Vimanav
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:48 pm

Thank you all for your responses

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 17):
There are many different types of Jet fuel.
In Europe we use Jet A1. In the USA they use Jet A. You can also see Jet B. These all have different densities and freeze points. We have rules for how much Jet A we can have on board for polar flights, We track how much is in the tanks. With recycled fuel you don't know.
Also many countries like China and Russia and other ex Soviet countries have their own fuel types. They are very similar, but different.
Jet fuel is not all the same.

What if we are talking about Jet A-1 defuelled from say QF being used by SQ or TG ? Are there any regulations that govern /prohibit/regulate this by ICAO or other regulatory bodies?

brgds//Vimanav
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nomadd22
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:06 pm

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 16):
So what apart from the microbial growth in an aircraft fuel tanks can contaminate fuel so bad that it cannot be reused?

If the defuelled fuel is tested and found to be satisfactory why can it not be used again in another aircraft?

brgds//Vimanav

You don't fuel clean, dry tanks. You fuel tanks that already have some fuel in them. You can't test for everything that that old fuel and tank had in them that might cause problems. It all depends on your standards. I wouldn't buy recovered fual and a lot of other people aren't going to want second hand gas.
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jetstar
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:46 pm

Back in my JetStar maintenance days, any time we did fuel tank work we would pump the fuel using that tanks main fuel boost pump through an external hose from the defueling valve into another fuel tank, the JetStar had 6 fuel tanks, except when we had to change a failed main fuel tank boost pump.

When one of the main fuel boost pumps failed the only way to get the fuel out of the that tank, with the engine running suction feed it through the boost pump using the engine driven fuel pump until the fuel level dropped to about 200 pounds of fuel, then manually drain the rest of the fuel out of the tank using the sump drains, which was not put back into the airplane.

Because of fuel tank corrosion problems, Lockheed recommended that the fuel tanks be sumped often to remove any accumulated water, so I normally sumped the airplane before every departure from home base. With 14 main fuel tank sump drains it was like milking a cow, I would easily drain 4 to 5 gallons each time.

I can tell you that all the sumped fuel was disposed of in an environmentally correct way, I either used in my Diesel Rabbit, it ran great on jet fuel, just added a little Marvel Mystery oil for fuel injection pump lubrication or brought it home in 5 gallon cans and used it in my furnace, which also ran great on it

Those were the good old days

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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 20):
I can tell you that all the sumped fuel was disposed of in an environmentally correct way, I either used in my Diesel Rabbit, it ran great on jet fuel, just added a little Marvel Mystery oil for fuel injection pump lubrication or brought it home in 5 gallon cans and used it in my furnace, which also ran great on it

Those were the good old days

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jetstar
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 21):
Life was simple, wasn't it?

It wasn’t simple, but a little bit easier then, today if you spill one drop of fuel from the sumps on the ground, you will have the EPA all over your ass if they find out about it. It is now illegal to dump the 1 ounce of fuel drained from the sumps of a C-150 onto the ramp like we all did in the past to evaporate, now you have to find a environmentally safe container to pour the fuel into or if caught face a heavy fine.

Back then at HPN I could walk down the flight line to go from the hangar to the restaurant in the terminal for lunch with no problem, now I would probably be arrested for walking into a SIDA area without a badge.

The TSA has been trying to implement a rule that would require corporate flight departments to run all the company passengers names through the TSA for security checks before the flight, so far they have not been successful with this, but they still are pushing hard for this rule. They have even hinted that they want every passenger on every airplane, including single engine airplanes to be background checked before the flight.

Dealing with the FAA was bad enough even back then, they are the most anal people I have ever had to work with, but now with the TSA sticking their noses into all forms of civil aviation, including maintenance operations things are going to get worse.

I am glad I am not running a corporate flight department’s maintenance operation any more.

JetStar
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:15 am

I kept a 5 gallon can at the airport to save all the Jet-A from when I'd sump trucks. Like Jetstar I found a variety of ways to use it from my roomates diesel rabbit to a kerosene heater at our hunting cabin. With the anti-icing additive it worked well in his car during cold winters.
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jetstar
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:25 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 23):
I kept a 5 gallon can at the airport to save all the Jet-A from when I'd sump trucks. Like Jetstar I found a variety of ways to use it from my roomates diesel rabbit to a kerosene heater at our hunting cabin. With the anti-icing additive it worked well in his car during cold winters.

I had a kerosene space heater back when they were very popular and I knew a lot of people that ran jet fuel in them, but I never did. The color of jet fuel was a light yellow or brown, this was from the sulfur in the fuel and I wasn’t thrilled with burning it in a closed environment, so I always used 1k kerosene which burned clean.

I believe today all the sulfur has been removed from jet fuel, I don’t know about #2 heating oil, now that the feds require all non highway #2 oil be dyed red, its hard to tell.

JetStar
 
L-188
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:43 pm

I can't think of too many times that we had to defuel aircraft. but did it plenty of times with tanks and vessels to change filters and what have you.

Most of it ended up in the DF#1 tank to heat the terminal.

Jet, Kerosene and Diesel fuels are all in the same family so they are pretty interchangeable. I know of one construction crew that when the weather changed switched to ordering jet fuel for it's equipment since it didn't gel as much as diesel because of it's lower was content. But you couldn't run that all year because that wax does have a lubercation purpose in the fuel so it will screw up engines over time.
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jetmatt777
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:13 pm

We are required to only load it back on the airline that we refueled from.

We keep a truck that doesn't run very well to defuel with. It sits in the back of our lot. If it has fuel on board from a defuel, the next time we have that airline, we'll empty that truck to fuel their next flight, and then add new fuel from a different truck to finish the uplift.
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CanadianNorth
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:38 am

Not sure the regulations in these parts, but we have a separate tank on a trailer we de-fuel Jet-A into, and then we take that and put it in the furnace tanks (filter it as we pump it in of course) and heat the hangars with it. Simple and effective, no wasted fuel and no worries about spreading contamination to other aircraft.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
Jet, Kerosene and Diesel fuels are all in the same family so they are pretty interchangeable.

Jet A and kerosene is the same. During my 30+ professional years in the oil business, all the (rather little) kerosene we sold was taken from the Jet A tank.

But once it had been renamed into kerosene, then it never became Jet A again due to the much stricter storage and handling procedures for Jet A.

Only exception is "smell free kerosene" which is usually sold at much higher prices on bottles, mostly for use on lamps.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
I know of one construction crew that when the weather changed switched to ordering jet fuel for it's equipment since it didn't gel as much as diesel because of it's lower was content. But you couldn't run that all year because that wax does have a lubercation purpose in the fuel so it will screw up engines over time.

Road diesel specs changes with season. Summer diesel will clock the filters with wax at very low temperature. It's an old trick to add up to 30% kerosene (Jet A) which keeps the wax floating at much lower temperature.

Nowadays many diesel vehicles have electrically heated fuel filters, problem solved.

You should never run a diesel engine on clean kerosene unless it is designed for it - like some special light GA diesel engines. It's no problem for the engine itself, but the fuel injection pump is only lubricated by the fuel, and it will wear out pretty fast and lighten your wallet for a lot of $$$ if you run it on 100% kerosene.
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Stabilator
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:49 pm

I recall a few times during my time at UND where I needed to offload x gallons of 100LL fuel for weight and balance. Line pulled up, took it out, and it went right back into the fuel truck.
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KELPkid
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:07 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 29):
I recall a few times during my time at UND where I needed to offload x gallons of 100LL fuel for weight and balance. Line pulled up, took it out, and it went right back into the fuel truck.

In that case, though, the owner was taking it back (even if it was going onto a different bird). I doubt that the same truck would refuel any random GA plane that pulled up on the ramp...
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Kelloggs
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
Jet, Kerosene and Diesel fuels are all in the same family so they are pretty interchangeable. I know of one construction crew that when the weather changed switched to ordering jet fuel for it's equipment since it didn't gel as much as diesel because of it's lower was content. But you couldn't run that all year because that wax does have a lubercation purpose in the fuel so it will screw up engines over time.

You are correct but running a diesel on Jet-A1 doesn't directly kill the engine. In fact as prebennorholm has correctly stated you shouldn't run a diesel on Jet-A or Kero unless is is designed for it or an older diesel such as a Lister or any 1970s type fitted with a Simms pump. Why?

Let me start this explanation by stating that I am a qualified and licensed Automotive Engineer (Petrol and Diesel) with some 27 years experience. Now Diesel unlike Jet-A contains certain additives to not only get the correct Cetane rating (for emissions) but what is called "Lubricity" as well. The latter is to lubricate the injector pump. Now you can run a diesel on Jet-A without problems if you follow a simple rule which has been mentioned yet there is a bit more to it. If for example your "Diesel truck" has a 60 litre tank and you fill it from "Dry tank" with Jet-A you add a quart of either Auto trans fluid or 2 stroke oil to the tank of fuel. This brings the Cetane rating back up (not quite to where it should be but enough) and returns the lubricity to the fuel thus preventing premature injector pump wear. It's the injector pump failing that can and does kill your engine . The other rule is for every 2 tanks of Jet-A run one tank of "normal diesel".

Things you will notice...

Your oil stays clean longer.

The exhaust smells a lot better as we all really have to admit here that nothing beats the smell of burnt Jet-A1 especially in the morning.

It will be slightly down on power but not really too much and if you have friends in the right places and get a supply for a "social club donation" to help dispose of it who cares..

Now why I stated the older diesels such as the Lister is that some of those are designed to run on any fuel. Those with the older Simms type pump well those pumps have their own oil supply so check the manual to be sure as some jap trucks still run a copy of those pumps.

Disclaimer: DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ATTEMPT THIS ON A MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE!! These run very fine tolerances in the fuel system components and fuel pressures of 26000psi plus. If you try it on one and it stops you will be looking at a minimum spend of $10000USD to get it going again.

A note on "Avgas" too. Do not run this on an EFI petrol engine. The additives in the fuel kill the O2 sensors and block the catalytic convertor. All good for a carburetor engine however

I will add that in this part of the world we haven't had sulfur in diesel since '02. That caused all sorts of fun with leaking injector pumps as the new fuel reacted with the seals in the pumps
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting Kelloggs (Reply 31):
I will add that in this part of the world we haven't had sulfur in diesel since '02.

Well, call that ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) which today is used all over the developed world. Max. 10 ppm (parts per million) sulfur in the EU, max. 15 ppm in the US and Canada (likely less in for instance California, they are always special, while Alaska didn't join the ULSD wagon until 2010).

Back in a distant century it was gradually reduced (over 500, 200, and 50 ppm) as refineries invested billions in new technology to remove sulfur from the crude oil.

Zero sulfur diesel does exist, but is nowhere sold as a retail product at service stations, as it is very expensive. It is produced synthetically from natural gas rather than refined from crude oil. To my knowledge zero sulfur diesel was first used for drilling the 6 miles long railway tunnel under the Great Belt here in Denmark in the mid 90'es. Today it is mainly used for heavy indoor fork lifts, when electric battery power isn't practical. I have heard that also some city buses in Berlin would transfer to zero sulfur diesel, don't know if it actually happened.
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hufftheweevil
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 7):
It is defueled and stored in fuel trucks, but it has to go back to the airline that defueled it. Usually goes back into the same aircraft.
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 10):
If Fuel is removed from for example a United airplane. The fueling company will only put it back into a United airplane. Only because the fuel has been paid for by United once it was pumped out of the truck, so United actually now owns that fuel.
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 26):
We are required to only load it back on the airline that we defueled from.

When I was hired by the fueling company that I work for, I was told that we can only reuse fuel that was defueled if it's for the same airline, per FAA regulations.

However, I've always had concerns with this directive: Surely this applies to mainline/regional carriers as well. For example, fuel taken from a Delta aircraft cannot be used on a Shuttle America aircraft. They are different carriers, afterall, even if Delta has an agreement to pay for Shuttle America's fuel. (I don't know if they do...I'm just using a hypothetical)

If this is true, well...maybe I shouldn't go into detail.
Huff
 
L-188
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:45 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 28):
Road diesel specs changes with season. Summer diesel will clock the filters with wax at very low temperature. It's an old trick to add up to 30% kerosene (Jet A) which keeps the wax floating at much lower temperature.

Yup, usually if memory serves that construction crew usually would only order the jet when it got to about -12c.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 28):
You should never run a diesel engine on clean kerosene unless it is designed for it - like some special light GA diesel engines. It's no problem for the engine itself, but the fuel injection pump is only lubricated by the fuel, and it will wear out pretty fast and lighten your wallet for a lot of $$$ if you run it on 100% kerosene.

Agree completely. Keep in mind this was 20 years ago (ugh) at a remote site and all of our fuel was barge delived once ever month or so. So often you had to use what was on hand.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 28):
Nowadays many diesel vehicles have electrically heated fuel filters, problem solved

That must be nice, most of the construction equipment that crew was operating was used and wasn't that nice.

Quoting Kelloggs (Reply 31):
You are correct but running a diesel on Jet-A1 doesn't directly kill the engine. In fact as prebennorholm has correctly stated you shouldn't run a diesel on Jet-A or Kero unless is is designed for it or an older diesel such as a Lister or any 1970s type fitted with a Simms pump. Why?

Agree. But like I said, they only used it at colder temps 10F or -12C if you prefer.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 32):
while Alaska didn't join the ULSD wagon until 2010

Also keep in mind that the sulfer rules are only in effect for on road vehicles. The north slope operators have run a cracking plant to provide Diesel for the oil field at Prudhoe Bay for years. When the ULSD rules came around they considered building a new compliant plant but instead decided to truck it up from Fairbanks. The cracking plant at PBU wasn't shut down though. Pretty much all the fuel it produces is now used for downhole freeze protection in the wells. Which means it is shot down the oilwell to keep them from freezing up in cold weather. It also acts as a thinner for thick oil making it easier to pump out....No ULSD requirement for this
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deltal1011man
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:45 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 1):

I've asked that same question before and was told it wasn't usable and therefore was burned from time to time by the airport fire fighting station. That was many years ago, so I'm not sure if it's still true.

I have seen people take Jet A home after the tanks were drained. (after they were told it was okay by people above them)

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 9):

Not if I have anything to do with the tank work. I don't care how low the levels are. There is at least one venturi blowing air across the tank that someone is going into. It simply makes it more comfortable to work in there. The guy is less likely to freak out if he is cool and gets stuck for a moment ( that includes myself ).

helps a ton if your claustrophobic.
 
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:54 am

Quoting musang (Reply 15):
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 7):It is defueled and stored in fuel trucks
Which sometimes presents a problem. At major airports the fuel comes up via hydrants, and the fuel suppliers don't have many tankers/bowsers.

That was our issue. We had two 1965 Ford Hydrant trucks that had been bought new and in 1995 had less that 4000 miles on the odometer. The only tanker we had was the one that was used to make heating fuel deliveries(and some private vehicle tanks), so guess what any fuel we offloaded became
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HAWK21M
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 am

Defuelled fuel is collected by the refuelling agency in a seperate Bowser for defuelling purpose after the basic water detection tests.....this is then ungone needed test before it can be recirculated back in the system.
The airline is issued a receipt on the amount of fuel defuelled and calculation of costs are done accordingly after deducting defuelling charges.
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Kelloggs
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 32):
Zero sulfur diesel does exist,

As far as I know its called JP7. I could be wrong
 
LH707330
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:43 pm

Quoting Kelloggs (Reply 38):
As far as I know its called JP7. I could be wrong

That's the fuel used by the SR-71's J58s. While it is zero-sulfur, I don't think it would would work well in a normal diesel engine due to it's extremely high burn temps.
 
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:46 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 33):

Air carrier. Not who paid for the fuel.

You can remove fuel from a SkyWest United flight and load it on a SkyWest Delta flight. You can't offload fuel from an ExpressJet united flight and load it on a SkyWest Delta flight. They are two separate certificates despite the same holding company.
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CALTECH
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:51 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
I assume heavy maintenance facilities will eventually stop ventilation when the air quality reaches a consistent, safe level.
Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 9):
Not if I have anything to do with the tank work. I don't care how low the levels are. There is at least one venturi blowing air across the tank that someone is going into. It simply makes it more comfortable to work in there. The guy is less likely to freak out if he is cool and gets stuck for a moment ( that includes myself ).

Always keep the ventilation blowing and sucking while fuel tanks are being worked on. The smell of fuel never quite goes away.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 10):
In the general sense. If Fuel is removed from for example a United airplane. The fueling company will only put it back into a United airplane. Only because the fuel has been paid for by United once it was pumped out of the truck, so United actually now owns that fuel.

Usually for hangar weigh jobs, they defuel into a truck, and then it gets pumped back into the same airplane before coming over to the terminal where it will get it's final fuel load.

Quoting jetstar (Reply 20):
I can tell you that all the sumped fuel was disposed of in an environmentally correct way, I either used in my Diesel Rabbit, it ran great on jet fuel, just added a little Marvel Mystery oil for fuel injection pump lubrication or brought it home in 5 gallon cans and used it in my furnace, which also ran great on it

Those were the good old days

JetStar

Yes they were. Now any fuel goes missing agencies get real interested.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 39):
That's the fuel used by the SR-71's J58s. While it is zero-sulfur, I don't think it would would work well in a normal diesel engine due to it's extremely high burn temps.

And it's Jell-O like consistency
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HAWK21M
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 40):
You can remove fuel from a SkyWest United flight and load it on a SkyWest Delta flight.

What about the Refueller quality checks.
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jetmatt777
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:00 pm

Quoting hawk21m (Reply 42):

Since it's going back on the same air carrier I don't recall ever doing one. The paint on the side of the aiplane and the interior seats should make no difference to the fuel. It's going OO to OO. And as many SkyWest flights as my base handles, usually goes out loaded on the next flight.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Reusing Fuel Defuelled From Aircraft Tanks

Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:30 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 43):

Since it's going back on the same air carrier I don't recall ever doing one.

Then storage would need to be isolated from other batches or placed in a separate tanker till uplifted.
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