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clickhappy
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting brianw999 (Reply 48):
for a law suit against the photographer and a.net on the grounds of invasion of privacy

With Tort law you can pretty much sue for anything. Good luck however trying to prove a picture of you taken on a beach in a spot where everyone has a camera that 1) The picture was taken without your consent and 2) The photo has caused you 'harm.'
 
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planespot
Posts: 145
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting brianw999 (Reply 48):

Yes...but don't you find it at all odd that they mostly seem to be attractive, perfectly framed and exposed young ladies ? I have no problem with the female form but when it's blatantly used to generate hits then I have to question the motives of the photographer and also the site publishing them.

Do you know Timo? I can assure you he was trying to take a nice picture over taking something which would generate views. And as Maho is known for the proximity of the beach to arriving planes, showing people on the beach is the best way to do that. You people are talking as if the plane is a tiny speck in the sky. Girls in bikinis on Maho Beach have long been allowed on A.net. What's the difference between having a girl in the shot naturally and having her in the photo and framing her nicely? And for every photo with a nice-looking girl in the shot, there are plenty of others with a guy or old woman. Do you have a problem with those pics? Have you shot at SXM before? Would you throw away all your photos from SXM with a girl in a bikini in the frame?

Quoting brianw999 (Reply 48):

An interesting thought occurs. I don't know a lot about American and Dutch laws but I would stab a guess that the young lady in the picture concerned could possibly have a good case for a law suit against the photographer and a.net on the grounds of invasion of privacy ? It's going to happen one day.

I don't know about Dutch law, but "possibly have a good case for a law suit against the photographer"? What? She's standing on a public beach! Good luck having that lawsuit fly in a US court.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:58 pm

Quoting brianw999 (Reply 48):
An interesting thought occurs. I don't know a lot about American and Dutch laws but I would stab a guess that the young lady in the picture concerned could possibly have a good case for a law suit against the photographer and a.net on the grounds of invasion of privacy ?

She's standing on a public beach. Not sure you could get invasion of privacy out of that.

There could be a case if she didn't sign a release and the photog was making money from it. But that's not invasion of privacy. And I'm not a lawyer.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 49):
Umm, isn't that the idea when trying incorporate anything else in the frame with an aircraft? Framing is important and so is subject matter. That goes for EVERYTHING in photography.

Absolutely. If we're going to ban hit-seeking photos, then we should just close down the website. By posting a photo to airliners.net, you are by definition hit-seeking, even if the number of hits doesn't matter to you.

Quoting brianw999 (Reply 48):
Yes...but don't you find it at all odd that they mostly seem to be attractive, perfectly framed and exposed young ladies ? I have no problem with the female form but when it's blatantly used to generate hits then I have to question the motives of the photographer and also the site publishing them.

Again, I refer you to all the photos I posted in my previous posts, where the airplane is a relatively small part of the scene. As has been stated ad nauseum in countless threads, A.net is both aircraft database and photography collection. It serves both functions.

Also......the photo I posted by Sam Chui, with the dude in the foreground, has 525,566 hits.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 36):
As far as age is concerned, the photographer will know, he will have asked for her permission won't he?

I don't believe there's any such requirement for photos taken in a public place.

Quoting brianw999 (Reply 48):
I don't know a lot about American and Dutch laws but I would stab a guess that the young lady in the picture concerned could possibly have a good case for a law suit against the photographer and a.net on the grounds of invasion of privacy ?

No, you can't have an expectation of privacy while in a public place like a beach.
 
Psych
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:22 pm

Whatever one's position on this issue, we have actually got a debate here - all too rare these days - and that makes for a nice change.

For those who think there are a bunch of guys in the discussion who need to take a chill pill and get a life, I refer back to my Reply 10, about the comments. I do hope I'm not contravening any rule with the following (and apologise if I am), but I refer to something already present on the site, right underneath the photo for anyone who cares to look:

"Nice rear end and a curvaceous cockpit....." Some will say that's harmless wit; others may have a different view. I'm just not 100% sure if I was 'A.net' (whatever that means), with my position in the web as I would want it to be, that I'd be completely comfortable being seen to tacitly support such 'humour'. And I have to say we live in a world where there is something different if the girl/woman in question is 14 or 24.

Paul
 
ckw
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting Psych (Reply 54):
"Nice rear end and a curvaceous cockpit....." Some will say that's harmless wit; others may have a different view. I'm just not 100% sure if I was 'A.net' (whatever that means), with my position in the web as I would want it to be, that I'd be completely comfortable being seen to tacitly support such 'humour'.

I do agree with this - if I had uploaded the picture, I would be rather annoyed by some of the comments, and indeed would likely take it somewhere less juvenile. If you want to have A.net taken seriously, the comments on this and indeed many other photos is the first place to start sorting things out ... leave perfectly good photos alone.

Cheers,

Colin
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting ckw (Reply 55):

I do agree with this - if I had uploaded the picture, I would be rather annoyed by some of the comments, and indeed would likely take it somewhere less juvenile.

Note that photographers are able to disable commenting on their own photos....
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting Psych (Reply 54):

Paul, wouldn't the quality of comments being displayed be the responsibility of the moderators? Comments are screened aren't they? I know many low quality comments never see their spot under a photo. That's not the fault of the photographer but the quality of comment screening, IMO.
 
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DL747
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:17 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 58):
Comments are screened aren't they? I know many low quality comments never see their spot under a photo. That's not the fault of the photographer but the quality of comment screening, IMO.

I'm pretty sure comments are indeed screened. If they are, it begs the question as to how the comments posted above, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with aviation, were allowed onto the photo. It doesn't quite add up. Furthermore, I'd have to say the shot does have questionable motives, especially given how it seems to be deliberately framed to include the girl as the main focal point of the image. It seems to me that the aircraft is rather an accessory to the photo, with the main point being on the girl. No offense to anyone who took, screened, or was otherwise involved with the photo, but in my opinion, that shot doesn't really belong here. With regards to people in photos for this site, there has been and always will be a lot of grey area. I think this shot falls on the side of being a bit too non-aviation motivated. I don't see much of an issue with the quality of the aircraft itself as some others were saying. Marginally oversharpened, maybe, but that's about it.

John
 
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seahawk
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:41 am

I do not see the problem, people click on those shots, they generate income for the site.

If the person in the picture should complain to a.net you delete the picture - done. In the end it is the responsibility of the photographer to only up-load material for which he has the necessary rights to up-load it.
 
SA7700
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:52 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 58):
Paul, wouldn't the quality of comments being displayed be the responsibility of the moderators? Comments are screened aren't they? I know many low quality comments never see their spot under a photo. That's not the fault of the photographer but the quality of comment screening, IMO.

The Moderators does not have any control over photography comments. These specific comments are screened by the Support Crew and not by the Moderators.

Thanks and regards,

SA7700
 
JRadier
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:04 am

Quoting brianw999 (Reply 48):
An interesting thought occurs. I don't know a lot about American and Dutch laws but I would stab a guess that the young lady in the picture concerned could possibly have a good case for a law suit against the photographer and a.net on the grounds of invasion of privacy ?

I'm not sure about US law (but that has been commented), but it is a public place and on top of that the person is not recognisable, so I'm pretty sure the lawsuit wouldn't really go anywhere.
 
LLA001
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:43 am

I have to admit, if there are five pictures of airplanes on the screen and one of them has a lady with a bikini, most probably I will open that picture,

but at the same time if there were again five pictures of airplanes on the screen and one of them had a person in it ( man/woman wearing bikini/no bikini/plain clothes/uniform etc) I would probably open that picture as well.

I think it is great to have people on some of the pictures in this site as they bring a sense of proportion to the scene. I love airplanes as objects, but to see them with people and even with buildings, gives me a more realistic sense of them.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:00 pm

Concerning the comment screening:

yes, comments are screened by the Support Crew.
We have a set of rules about which comments are acceptable and which are not. (you can read these when opening the photo comment box). Some of these rules are easy to follow and apply (e.g. no all CAPS comments).
Others are in a grey area and it is left to the responsibility of the Support guy in question whether he accepts it or not.

Some of the comments about the photo in question do belong to that grey area but I think nothing really inappropriate has made it through the screening. We have to find a balance. If somebody uploads a photo where a woman in a bikini takes up a prominent position and that photo gets 45000 views you'll expect comments not just about the airplane but also about the woman. If we left none pass some would again find the screening to be too restrictive.

On the other hand, from the photographer's perspective, it is his photo and when he uploads it he knows what to expect and if he doesn't like having certain comments with his photos then he has two options, either disable the comments altogether or delete them.

Hope, that clarifies the matter.

Cheers,

Thierry
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 60):
The Moderators does not have any control over photography comments. These specific comments are screened by the Support Crew and not by the Moderators.

My point was that comments are screened. Who does the screening wasn't really important to my point. I didn't know who does the screening. I just knew someone does it. But thanks for the clarification.

Quoting thierryd (Reply 63):


I believe the issue brought up was about inappropriate jokes making it through screening.
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2196
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:58 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Timo Breidenstein



Just added.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:00 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 65):
Just added

Rightfully so. It's another great shot.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:27 am

Great shot. Captures the scene at SXM perfectly.
 
angad84
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:19 am

I'm ok with bikini-clad women in included in shots (SXM or anywhere else) whether for hits or simply because they're good photographs. But I'm also ok with people in general included in photographs as long as they add to the shot.

I completely agree that beachgoers at Maho are part of the scene and frankly, I think Timo's shot is very well composed - the girl is a prominent foreground element, sharp and in focus, and if the plane was centered as per a.net "convention" she would have been cut in half and her presence been far more distracting than it is now. Overall, the frame works.

But If screening is going to make concessions for shots with motivated inclusion of people at places like Maho or St. Barts, the same lenience should be shown to shots like the ones Andrei linked, for example. His C-17, P-40, and Bone side/nose shot in particular are shots that I would certainly click on if I saw their thumbnails, and the human presence certainly adds to them. There is little separating them from shots such as these (already in the DB):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Benjamin Schütz
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yerbol Yespol - Almaty Spotting Club


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yerbol Yespol - Almaty Spotting Club
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © DavidCherkasov


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aidyn Iskakov - Almaty Spotting Club
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Fritz



These are great shots, some "unconventionally" composed (by a.net standards) and all feature human elements that make them interesting.

Tl;DR - I'm not here to whinge about underage arse, I'm here to whinge about screening consistency. Inclusion of people is obviously subjective. So shouldn't the photographer, rather than the screener, be given the benefit of the doubt? These are people that could have waited/composed/cropped to end up with a generic shot but chose to include something extra in the frame, why penalise them, assuming everything else meets the technical criteria for acceptance?

Cheers,
Angad
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:41 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 68):
His C-17, P-40, and Bone side/nose shot in particular are shots that I would certainly click on if I saw their thumbnails

Thanks for your support, Angad. Just like you, I have nothing against the shot that started the thread, I am against the double standards in screening, when similar motives treated differently. For the life of me, I just don't understand the phrase "photographer distracting". What, you open the photo, and your eyes are glued to the "distraction", so you can't move them to see the rest of the shot? For the life of me, I don't understand why the P-39 shot is "unbalanced". And again, if I start looking, I'm sure I'll find hundreds of such "unbalanced" photos.

But the only way to argue about the sceening result is to appeal, and if it is about the motive, your appeal is rejected, and you receive a couple of words from the headscreener, expressing agreement with the screener's point of view.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 68):
So shouldn't the photographer, rather than the screener, be given the benefit of the doubt?

Never gonna happen. This is not a photographer's site, it is a screener's site. In my eight years here I have surely learned that much. Even if change happens here, it doesn't last. We had a short period recently, when a lot of interesting, non-standard images were accepted, where it seemed, that the photographer was allowed to decide what motive to upload. It seems all over now. If the screener said that your photo is "lazy" - it is lazy. Case closed.
 
ckw
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Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 69):
Even if change happens here, it doesn't last. We had a short period recently, when a lot of interesting, non-standard images were accepted, where it seemed, that the photographer was allowed to decide what motive to upload.

The change has to be far more fundamental to make a difference. I have always thought that hit counting works against the site - it turns it into a competition, and some people's motive for uploading becomes questionable. A starting point would be to remove (or at least de-emphasise) anything that promotes quantity over quality.

I would also screen photographers rather than individual images - for a new member, yes, every image needs to be screened. But once that photographer has reached a certain standard, trust them. Perhaps a periodical review is needed to make sure standards haven't slipped, but otherwise, trust the photographer.

This doesn't have to mean "anything goes" - part of the induction would be learning the house style - but be open about it. Instead of nit picking minor imperfections, be upfront, and just say "Nice pic, but not what we want here becuase ...". That's how people learn.

Doing this would definitely lose some photographers. But I think it would gain/win back quite a few as well.

Cheers,

Colin
 
mjgbtv
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:18 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:06 pm

Quoting ckw (Reply 70):
Perhaps a periodical review is needed to make sure standards haven't slipped, but otherwise, trust the photographer.

Or perhaps the un-screened images could go into a special view which photographers would have access to. If someone saw something questionable enough it could be flagged to go into the screening queue. Some system could be devised to make sure that this capability was not abused or overdone. If nothing happened within some period of time the image would go into the regular db.
 
megatop412
Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:40 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting ckw (Reply 70):
I have always thought that hit counting works against the site - it turns it into a competition, and some people's motive for uploading becomes questionable. A starting point would be to remove (or at least de-emphasise) anything that promotes quantity over quality.

Excellent suggestion sir! Let's start by removing all those dreadful self-congratulatory threads with titles like "Finally, 1000 uploads on anet!" The false modesty alone makes me want to puke
 
airimage
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:18 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting megatop412 (Reply 72):
Let's start by removing all those dreadful self-congratulatory threads with titles like "Finally, 1000 uploads on anet!"

I thought I was the only one who thought that!
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:03 am

Quoting megatop412 (Reply 72):
The false modesty alone makes me want to puke

A bit of vanity is part of a creative personality  
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:41 am

Quoting ckw (Reply 70):
I have always thought that hit counting works against the site - it turns it into a competition, and some people's motive for uploading becomes questionable.

I disagree - hit counting is indispensable. Let's face it - we put our photos up for other people to see and we want evidence of it. Otherwise everyone could upload on MyAviation.net - everything is accepted and hits don't matter.

As for peoples' motives - they are always questionable, even for themselves. That's why we have shrinks.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting megatop412 (Reply 72):

Quoting ckw (Reply 70):
I have always thought that hit counting works against the site - it turns it into a competition, and some people's motive for uploading becomes questionable. A starting point would be to remove (or at least de-emphasise) anything that promotes quantity over quality.

Excellent suggestion sir! Let's start by removing all those dreadful self-congratulatory threads with titles like "Finally, 1000 uploads on anet!" The false modesty alone makes me want to puke


Well it used to be photographers congratulating other photographers on milestones, which was nice. Now folks feel the need to announce their milestones themselves.
 
Psych
Posts: 3013
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:47 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 76):

Well it used to be photographers congratulating other photographers on milestones, which was nice. Now folks feel the need to announce their milestones themselves.

Hello Ryan. You make an important point. This is one of the things that has changed really significantly over more recent times. The loss of that element of this community. But that is one reason why I have 'enjoyed' being involved in this thread - at least here we have had a discussion, and people have got involved. I am afraid that has been dying.

I am one of those who fully understands the relevance to many photographers of view numbers. There's no doubt also that the site places great emphasis and 'prizes' success with 'volume'. But that is another thing that has changed over recent years too - in terms of factors influencing this.

This thread - with the issues about when people are okay and when they become a distraction (and what factors may be influencing such attitudes) - shows us that, ultimately, A.net is made by people - subjective people. Long may we have the ability and opportunity to question decision-making, disagree with each other and voice our opinions.

Paul
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:31 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 75):
I disagree - hit counting is indispensable. Let's face it - we put our photos up for other people to see and we want evidence of it. Otherwise everyone could upload on MyAviation.net - everything is accepted and hits don't matter.

Some may want to count hits, but not everyone. Other sites I have worked with do just fine without hit counting. People do however want to be associated with a quality site, so I have no problem with standards and goals - indeed, the day I stop trying to improve my photography is the day I give up. But for me "hits" mean nothing - a single email of genuine appreciation ... or a sale ... is the all the validation I want.

Consider the original post - I think this is an excellent image (whether it belongs here or not) - but it has been "tainted" by the accusation of hit seeking.

Of course this site serves a diverse range of people, and no solution suits all, but speaking as a photographer first, aviation enthusiast second, I'm far more interested in provoking a response than mass appeal.

Cheers,

Colin
 
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alevik
Posts: 1202
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RE: Asses On The Beach ;)

Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:10 pm

Conversation seems to have run its course, with some less than appropriate input, so locking this thread.

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