Tweet from Jon Ostrower

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 7687346176

I'm....perplexed

This is not a source of anything.

So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.

LupineChemist wrote:

Tweet from Jon Ostrower

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 7687346176

I'm....perplexed

I thought that most of the ex. AirTran 717s are leased from Boeing trough WN? Why would they have to trade these in when Boeing already is the owner?
Or did I miss something?

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This is not a source of anything.

There is an article too. I just don’t have the link on me.

KFTG wrote:

So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.

Good place to start negotiating.

Unlikely rumor. Delta is not taking on debt now. Delta has mid-term contracts on the 717 for parts.

I do expect DL to order the MAX, but later and after brutal negotiations.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Unlikely rumor. Delta is not taking on debt now. Delta has mid-term contracts on the 717 for parts.

I do expect DL to order the MAX, but later and after brutal negotiations.

Lightsaber

I think DL is the one who put forward the idea. How would they take in debt from this?

KFTG wrote:

So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.

First off, I highly doubt DL is trying to make that exact trade, I think they are just trying to use the 717s they have as equity in a potential purchase. Now that we’re past that...

The bigger news is that A) DL is looking to place new aircraft orders, and B) Boeing might be able to sell 737Max to a large blue chip A320NEO customer. Boeing has had a rash of cancelations, and the 737M needs new sales and a new customer in order to reinvigorate the industrial confidence in that frame.

DL on the other hand has been talking about downsizing and manically cutting costs. Placing a new order for aircraft means the C suite is confident in revenue returning and a turnaround coming.

If they are exploring this, it is good news for DL and Boeing .

Nicknuzzii wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Unlikely rumor. Delta is not taking on debt now. Delta has mid-term contracts on the 717 for parts.

I do expect DL to order the MAX, but later and after brutal negotiations.

Lightsaber

I think DL is the one who put forward the idea. How would they take in debt from this?

New planes cost money, even if its the max. I don't think DL is trading the 717 for the Max one for one in terms of capital cost.

PHLspecial wrote:

Nicknuzzii wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Unlikely rumor. Delta is not taking on debt now. Delta has mid-term contracts on the 717 for parts.

I do expect DL to order the MAX, but later and after brutal negotiations.

Lightsaber

I think DL is the one who put forward the idea. How would they take in debt from this?

New planes cost money, even if its the max. I don't DL is trading the 717 for the Max one for one in terms of capital cost.

Certainly Boeing won’t go that easily for this. I think this was just a start for negotiations.

Call me old school, but I don't give much credibility to a rumor via a tweet.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This is not a source of anything.

Jon Ostrower is generally a pretty credible source. He wouldn't publish something that was just unconfirmed rumor.

They already have a replacement for the 717....the A220. Looking Forward to Dozens of pages of speculations.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Call me old school, but I don't give much credibility to a rumor via a tweet.

It's from Jon Ostrower who's a fairly well regard aviation journalist. I tend to think his tweets have more behind them than most.

Delta may be sensing an opportunity on the Max here. There's tons of negative press, lots of order cancellations and potentially more to come. Boeing is in serious trouble right now and an order from Delta would be a huge confidence boost in the Company and the Max. It makes sense to me to use the 717 fleet as a negotiating starting point to a large order.

Why would Delta need a large order of anything in the near future? I could see Delta deferring the 321neo's for 3 to 5 years. I don't if it was here or on the airline pilot forum, but someone wrote of rumors of Delta downsizing by roughly 1/3 after 10/1/20.

How can DL trade in something they don't own? The 712 fleet is leased from Boeing.

As someone mentioned earlier, aren't some of these 717 Boeing owned/leased? maybe those terms aren't favorable now and they're trying to offload them short notice for a desperate Boeing willing to release 717 lease claws against a Max purchase trade that may or may not get delivered (of which case delta can renegotiate them compensations AA and United got that no one seems to consider making the darn Max almost free to get)

If I'm Boeing, I would trade all of their B717 for second hand A380.

Seems to be these are more so A320s replacements and a few older 738s.

lightsaber wrote:

I do expect DL to order the MAX, but later and after brutal negotiations.

Lightsaber

Bua-hahahaha...

jholio wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Call me old school, but I don't give much credibility to a rumor via a tweet.

It's from Jon Ostrower who's a fairly well regard aviation journalist. I tend to think his tweets have more behind them than most.

More or less, yes. But there is a comment in that feed asking if certain consumable products have suddenly become legal in GA, & I think this sums up the situation.

Jon has a good handle on things, but DL are in no position to do anything like this. No point in mentioning BCA's own issues there too. . .

ehaase wrote:

Why would Delta need a large order of anything in the near future? I could see Delta deferring the 321neo's for 3 to 5 years. I don't if it was here or on the airline pilot forum, but someone wrote of rumors of Delta downsizing by roughly 1/3 after 10/1/20.

That is the thread right there. If it were reflective of the reality of the situation, the tweet(s) should ready something more like "Airline that has a chance of existing next year makes proposal to buy aircraft that will likely not be re-certificated by regulatory authorities from Manufacturer that has more of its own problems than a physics lab. Offers perfectly reliable fleet with known history of safety, reliability, and efficiency as financial leverage."

Is there any market for the used 717s? I don't see a value in an exchange if they would just be junked. Are they less-used than HA's current fleet on 717s, that could at least extend 717 flying those short hops in Hawaii?

Wingtips56 wrote:

Is there any market for the used 717s? I don't see a value in an exchange if they would just be junked. Are they less-used than HA's current fleet on 717s, that could at least extend 717 flying those short hops in Hawaii?

They can't possibly have more cycles then the Hawaii fleet.

Ok, so in the MAX threads it is all about the MAX being a product that paying pax will avoid, but we have a rumour about DL getting some and suddenly pax confidence is not an issue?
Personally I agree as most will not have much of a choice, but it sure is used as a big stick to bash the MAX.

717s to Boeing, leased to United on extremely attractive terms.

United upcoming MAX delivery slots/orders to DL, avoids UA having to defer/cancel order, and MAX production can resume at a reasonable rate.

KFTG wrote:

So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.

When you trade-in a car for a new one, do you get the brand new one for no extra cost? Highly unlikely. That would be the same here. Furthermore, the 717s are mostly leased from Boeing anyways.

Well I can see this coming true. It was announced by ALPA yesterday that DL is looking to permanently park the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and some of the 767 fleet. They need to shed about 3,000 pilot jobs. So assuming Boeing got wind of this, why not offer some new Max jets to be delivered at a later date and take the financial burden of parking the 717 fleet off of DL's hands? Seems like a win/win for everyone involved.

codc10 wrote:

717s to Boeing, leased to United on extremely attractive terms.

United upcoming MAX delivery slots/orders to DL, avoids UA having to defer/cancel order, and MAX production can resume at a reasonable rate.

UA doesn't want anything that small. It's not aircraft economics - it's UA mainline economics.

RalXWB wrote:

They already have a replacement for the 717....the A220. Looking Forward to Dozens of pages of speculations.

They certainly could get 100 MAXs faster than 100 A220s - even recognizing the A220s they have on order.

This can't be a seat-for-seat order to replace 717s - it's more likely A320 replacements and some 717 upgauging. Let the A321/neos on order replace a bunch of 757s. A 149-seat A320 to 197-seat 321neo is a big jump.

DL stabilizing the long term order book for Boeing on the max is pretty cunning for both parties; (a) DL wants to split orders, (b) Boeing wants to stabilize the backlog pending cancellations/ramp down/up etc. Worst case, it gives them even more negotiating power with Airbus on NEO’s and Boeing on NSA/NMA if/when either happen.

We’ve known the 717 (Aka DC-9) is going to go for a long time. It’s a durable frame that will find service in 3rd world markets for another couple decades.

cessna2 wrote:

Well I can see this coming true. It was announced by ALPA yesterday that DL is looking to permanently park the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and some of the 767 fleet. They need to shed about 3,000 pilot jobs. So assuming Boeing got wind of this, why not offer some new Max jets to be delivered at a later date and take the financial burden of parking the 717 fleet off of DL's hands? Seems like a win/win for everyone involved.

Where’d you see that? I believe it, but can you point me in the right direction of a link?

MIflyer12 wrote:

codc10 wrote:

717s to Boeing, leased to United on extremely attractive terms.

United upcoming MAX delivery slots/orders to DL, avoids UA having to defer/cancel order, and MAX production can resume at a reasonable rate.

UA doesn't want anything that small. It's not aircraft economics - it's UA mainline economics.

91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.

Also don't overlook the political considerations. Delta along with the other US airlines are getting a substantial amount of assistance from the federal government. Buying aircraft from an american source right now is politically advisable. And Delta by being the MAX+ (Re) Launch customer will command a substantial discount, while also giving the Boeing program credibility in both training and support.

Let's say that DL is indeed looking seriously at the Max, which version(s) are they most interested in? Max7 or Max8? Wouldn't think they'd need a Max9 or 10 given all the 739ERs and A321s in the fleet, and A321NEOs on order.

flyabr wrote:

Let's say that DL is indeed looking seriously at the Max, which version(s) are they most interested in? Max7 or Max8? Wouldn't think they'd need a Max9 or 10 given all the 739ERs and A321s in the fleet, and A321NEOs on order.

Most of their 737-800s are 20 years old or approaching, they likely would order the 8 MAX to replace those. They just took over 100 737-900ERs in the last 5 years and intend to fly the 757s for at least another 6-7 years.

8MAX can replace their MD-80’s/90 and 738 in capacity pretty closely.

UA444 wrote:

flyabr wrote:

Let's say that DL is indeed looking seriously at the Max, which version(s) are they most interested in? Max7 or Max8? Wouldn't think they'd need a Max9 or 10 given all the 739ERs and A321s in the fleet, and A321NEOs on order.

Most of their 737-800s are 20 years old or approaching, they likely would order the 8 MAX to replace those. They just took over 100 737-900ERs in the last 5 years and intend to fly the 757s for at least another 6-7 years.

8MAX can replace their MD-80’s/90 and 738 in capacity pretty closely.

Where do you folks on here get your information?

UA444 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

codc10 wrote:

717s to Boeing, leased to United on extremely attractive terms.

United upcoming MAX delivery slots/orders to DL, avoids UA having to defer/cancel order, and MAX production can resume at a reasonable rate.

UA doesn't want anything that small. It's not aircraft economics - it's UA mainline economics.

91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.

We can talk about UA's 2-class RJ relief strategy in another thread but if UA didn't want cheap 737-700s they won't want 717s at any price. https://crankyflier.com/2016/11/17/unit ... eplace-it/

I have always said the MAX 8 has a place in the fleet.

cessna2 wrote:

Well I can see this coming true. It was announced by ALPA yesterday that DL is looking to permanently park the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and some of the 767 fleet. They need to shed about 3,000 pilot jobs.

That would be a pretty transformative plan. Hope they have the cash flow (five years?) to do it. It looks like there are about 2,000 mandatory pilot retirements by the end of 2022.

I think it goes something like this:
DL - Hey we have a bunch of planes we would like park, but we have this lease...
BCA - Yeah. We look forward to all your lease payments.
DL - Could we trade these in now for some 737s later?
BCA - At full price, sure.
DL - You know if we go CH 11 that 717 lease ends the next day.
BCA - Well, we might be able to cut you a deal. We have some extra 737s spots on the production line.
DL - Would be a shame if we grabbed new A320s instead of any more 737s. Ever.
BCA - Let me get the sales manager....

Does anyone actually have access to the full article and knows what it says?

Fake news/click bait. I fail to understand why Delta would be interested in more aircraft. Delta is focusing on shrinking the size of the operations. The MD-88/90 is going away sooner rather than later; that's inevitable, but they do not need more frames than the A220-300s and A321neo they have on order to account for that loss. While DL may be looking to ditch some or all 717s to reduce the size of the airline further, thats where the A220 comes in also. Why do they need additional 738/9 sized aircraft on order? Thats what the A321s on order are for. The A220-100/300 already on order also fit that bill fine. In fact, the 223 was destined to be an M88 replacement anyway. Now's not the time to be spending money. The age of the 738s? They have several A320s older than the 738 flying around without a retirement schedule. What would the cost be to trade the 717 for the 737MAX? What are the economics of operating a 717 vs a 737MAX?

This rumor is absurd, especially since its hidden behind a paywall. Typical media source is looking to make money somehow, and this is a desperate attempt.

I'd like to be wrong about the 717s being switched out for the 737MAX, but at this point I have my serious doubts.

MIflyer12 wrote:

UA444 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

UA doesn't want anything that small. It's not aircraft economics - it's UA mainline economics.

91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.

We can talk about UA's 2-class RJ relief strategy in another thread but if UA didn't want cheap 737-700s they won't want 717s at any price. https://crankyflier.com/2016/11/17/unit ... eplace-it/

EVERYTHING has changed.

Kirby was hoping to negotiate scope relief without having to take on smaller gauge, with a sales pitch based on stability and forever growth in pilot jobs. United's MEC didn't buy it then, and it won't work now. United has around 150 MAXs it doesn't need, either built/undelivered or on order, most of which it probably won't be able to finance, at least with reasonable terms. The only option now is to defer or cancel, and Boeing can't accept that, lest it not be able to start up production or be forced to build at an uneconomical rate.

Meanwhile, Delta has A220s coming on property and the 717 fleet is redundant. It also needs to replace old airplanes and probably isn't in a position to make another major order for A220-300s. On the other hand, this is an opportunity (using Boeing and the 717s as leverage) to get the MAXs at a good price, perhaps even with guaranteed financing. Delta is opportunistic and with tens of thousands of employees taking voluntary unpaid leaves, several-fold more than competitors, Delta will emerge from this crisis in better shape than UA, AA and WN>

Boeing could turn around and lease 717s to United at a rate which would make them economical to operate with a mainline cost structure, in view of the fact that oil will be cheap for the foreseeable future and demand will be slow to return.

Pipe dreams, probably, but certainly an interesting rumor, considering the source.

All of this and DL wants to downsize their fleet, makes no sense

The leases on the 717 are maturing. DL purchased the 10 aircraft it had been leasing directly from Southwest, and agreed to a new leasing agreement with Boeing Capital on the aircraft previously subleased from Southwest.

There’s been conflicting reports as to whether the deal had been finalized. If this rumor is true, I would suspect it had been, and DL is negotiating to turn in the 717 now and terminate the lease agreement for no penalty, in exchange for buying 737MAX later.

In any event, it’s probable the 717 is done.

jonair8 wrote:

Fake news/click bait. I fail to understand why Delta would be interested in more aircraft. Delta is focusing on shrinking the size of the operations. The MD-88/90 is going away sooner rather than later; that's inevitable, but they do not need more frames than the A220-300s and A321neo they have on order to account for that loss. While DL may be looking to ditch some or all 717s to reduce the size of the airline further, thats where the A220 comes in also. Why do they need additional 738/9 sized aircraft on order? Thats what the A321s on order are for. The A220-100/300 already on order also fit that bill fine. In fact, the 223 was destined to be an M88 replacement anyway. Now's not the time to be spending money. The age of the 738s? They have several A320s older than the 738 flying around without a retirement schedule. What would the cost be to trade the 717 for the 737MAX? What are the economics of operating a 717 vs a 737MAX?

This rumor is absurd, especially since its hidden behind a paywall. Typical media source is looking to make money somehow, and this is a desperate attempt.

I'd like to be wrong about the 717s being switched out for the 737MAX, but at this point I have my serious doubts.

^^^^ this.

We want to scrap a lot of planes and not replace them. We're going to have a lot parked beyond that, good jets, that we won't even bring in for a while.

Wingtips56 wrote:

Is there any market for the used 717s? I don't see a value in an exchange if they would just be junked. Are they less-used than HA's current fleet on 717s, that could at least extend 717 flying those short hops in Hawaii?

Qantas might be interested and could use a few or at least take some for parts for their existing 20. They are a great plane cheap to buy and well liked by both crew and the accounts dept. Lots of outback flights on rough runways... Post Covid I doubt airlines are going to spend big on shiny new planes if there are good second hand ones on the market at a fraction of the price.... just MO

As mentioned earlier Boeing owns the 717's. It could make sense to lease Delta 737 Max's at an attractive rate just to keep production going. Delta has always been an opportunistic purchaser/lessee so this is at least plausible. Maybe it could even be for some of the already built frames that will never be taken, who knows? Anything is possible at this stage of the game.

DL was my island of protection against having to go anywhere near a 737MAX, thus I'm hoping this is only a horrible rumor.... but then again, there's the concept of "get while the getting's good"

Sure they won't need those aircraft in the near-term, but who's to say that the order is for the near term though? With so much instability, who knows how flexible Boeing would be on price for slots that are years out?

Delta wants the MAX?
Ooops am I sitting on the wrong planet?